UPDATE: Rossi Ranch Hand Mares Leg

Sorry, but I suspect that there's not a whole lot "out there" that ties-in varying sight-heights (with such a short sight radius) and the trajectory of a 240 grain .44 Magnum slug. Maybe in a hunting-pistol forum ...

Maybe I'm wrong ... I haven't looked.

But I don't think it's a straightforward Math calculation. More likely a sophisticated computer program ... which I'm sure is readily available somewhere.
Click to expand...

Here is the math.




When you are unable to adjust the rear sight to work for your rifle because the rifle shoots high you will need a taller front sight. To eliminate the guesswork, you can calculate the additional height needed using the procedure below.

1. Shoot your rifle at a known range (say 50 yards). Note the distance you need the impact to change (say 6 inches lower).

2. Measure the sight radius of your rifle (22 inches on most Marlins).

3. The change needed is calculated by changing all measurements to inches then multiply the sight radius by the desired change in impact and divide that product by the range in inches.

4. The result is the additional height needed for the front sight. To get the height of the new front sight add the current height and the calculated number from (3).

Example:

I need to shoot 6 inches lower at 50 yards with my 1894, 44 Mag. With a 22 inch sight radius. My current front sight is .350” tall from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the sight.

50 yards = 50X36=1800 inches

Desired height change is = 22 (sight radius)X6 (desired change)/1800(range)=.073 inches. My new front sight needs to be .350+.073 or .423 inches tall.


Here's the simple version:

To move the impact at 100 yards on a Marlin rifle with a 20" barrel requires .006" of sight change. (front or rear)

For example:

If you are shooting 6" low at 100 yards, your front sight needs to be "Trimmed" .036" shorter or the rear stem turned up 1 1/2 turns.

If you are shooting 6" high at 100 yards your front sight needs to be .036" taller or the rear stem turned down 1 1/2 turns. (If your stem is already at the lowest position a taller front sight is required)

If you are shooting at a shorter range than 100 yards adjust accordingly.

50 yards = 2 times the change needed. (.012" for 1" correction)
25 yards = 4 times the change needed. (.024" for 1" correction)

A 100 yard zero? Like I said, I'd be delighted for a 15 - 20 yard zero.
Click to expand...

Well i was basing it on the real world shooting results mentioned earlier in this thread - 12 inches high at 100 yards.

If you take the formula and you know how high you were hitting at 15 yards or 20 yards then you can work it out for your specific gun.

As for the ballistics - i did use a software program to calculate that :) I didn't have the precise fps out of that gun for that bullet, but i know roughly what it's likely to be so i took that and saw what it said for a quick and simple example.

BTW - for our guns the radius is 8 and 5/8ths if i recall correctly.
 
Could i put the barrel and stock off a 45lc mares leg onto my puma 454 casull? would it be legal? just wondering.
 
sirk said:
Could i put the barrel and stock off a 45lc mares leg onto my puma 454 casull? would it be legal? just wondering.
Click to expand...

as long as it was at least 26 inches long after you where done .......

the mares leg barrel and stock would make it 24 inches ........ the mares leg action is allowed to be 24 inches .

if you follow the letter of the law the 454 casull action could only be 26 inches long , no less . ( unless there is some sort of loophole now created with the importation of the new 24 inch long rifles ) .

a person could just buy a 12 inch barrel , and a build a slightly longer stock for the 454 action . .... also don't forget about having to cut down the magazine tube .
 
i may be wrong here with my limited knowledge but i was just thinking of swapping only the action out as the 45lc magazine tube will fit the 454 also.

im also not sure , but i dont think that the action on the 454 has any marks that say its a 454 and not a 45lc.
 
sirk said:
i may be wrong here with my limited knowledge but i was just thinking of swapping only the action out as the 45lc magazine tube will fit the 454 also.

im also not sure , but i dont think that the action on the 454 has any marks that say its a 454 and not a 45lc.
Click to expand...

so i am going to assume you are trying to make a 454 casull mares leg ?
 
It would be legal in the sense that the barrel was still made by a manufacturer and therefore isn't 'cut down', so you don't violate the barrel length and the oal isn't really an issue.

whether or not it would fire without blowing up unless there's a little adjustment from a gunsmith is something you'd have to ask someone else :)
 
sirk said:
yes. thats what my goal is.
Click to expand...

i'd get a short barrel made for it and installed , then i'd see if i could get another tube magazine from rossi , then have that cut down to match the barrel , then make a short stock for it .

i'd make sure to keep the original parts in case i wanted to go back to a full sized rifle later .

this would end up being alot cheaper than buying a ranch hand and parting it out .

btw i'm pretty sure the tube magazine it threaded into the action on the 454 rifles , i'm assuming it may just be pressed in on the 45 colt rifles . ( this is one of the things rossi is suposed to have changed on the rifles to help them deal with the recoil )




since i already own a rossi in 454 casull i have been thinking about getting a 14 barrel for it and making a stock about 25 % shorter .
 
Foxer said:
Here is the math.




When you are unable to adjust the rear sight to work for your rifle because the rifle shoots high you will need a taller front sight. To eliminate the guesswork, you can calculate the additional height needed using the procedure below.

1. Shoot your rifle at a known range (say 50 yards). Note the distance you need the impact to change (say 6 inches lower).

2. Measure the sight radius of your rifle (22 inches on most Marlins).

3. The change needed is calculated by changing all measurements to inches then multiply the sight radius by the desired change in impact and divide that product by the range in inches.

4. The result is the additional height needed for the front sight. To get the height of the new front sight add the current height and the calculated number from (3).

Example:

I need to shoot 6 inches lower at 50 yards with my 1894, 44 Mag. With a 22 inch sight radius. My current front sight is .350” tall from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the sight.

50 yards = 50X36=1800 inches

Desired height change is = 22 (sight radius)X6 (desired change)/1800(range)=.073 inches. My new front sight needs to be .350+.073 or .423 inches tall.


Here's the simple version:

To move the impact at 100 yards on a Marlin rifle with a 20" barrel requires .006" of sight change. (front or rear)

For example:

If you are shooting 6" low at 100 yards, your front sight needs to be "Trimmed" .036" shorter or the rear stem turned up 1 1/2 turns.

If you are shooting 6" high at 100 yards your front sight needs to be .036" taller or the rear stem turned down 1 1/2 turns. (If your stem is already at the lowest position a taller front sight is required)

If you are shooting at a shorter range than 100 yards adjust accordingly.

50 yards = 2 times the change needed. (.012" for 1" correction)
25 yards = 4 times the change needed. (.024" for 1" correction)



Well i was basing it on the real world shooting results mentioned earlier in this thread - 12 inches high at 100 yards.

If you take the formula and you know how high you were hitting at 15 yards or 20 yards then you can work it out for your specific gun.

As for the ballistics - i did use a software program to calculate that :) I didn't have the precise fps out of that gun for that bullet, but i know roughly what it's likely to be so i took that and saw what it said for a quick and simple example.

BTW - for our guns the radius is 8 and 5/8ths if i recall correctly.
Click to expand...

The 12 inches I mentioned earlier was not on paper but just eyeballing where the bullets were hitting against targets on a dirt bank.... for my gun just eyeballing it now that I have the sight filled down low I think that with a .5 inch front sight I will be able to use my sight elevator again but I will still have my lowered rear sight notch. A stock rear sight notch and a .5 front sight would not work on my gun with the elevator installed.
Steve also sells lowered rear sights that may be close with the .5 front sight.

I'm going to order some .5 fibre's from Steve as well.
 
Merci...

Foxer, I did not know that that sight-adjustment info was "out there" and thank you for explaining it. Do you think that what works for rifle-length barrels can be directly and mathematically extrapolated to a pistol-length side radius? I have no clue, but sometimes it doesn't work-out that way.

I guess that the only way we'll find out is when someone slaps on that taller front sight and goes to the range. I notice in the ballistics charts for 240 grain .44 Magnum that a 100-yard "second-zero" means about a 15-20 yard first-zero ... which I'm looking for.

(And where I can still see and hit the target! :) )

Gary said that Williams Gunsights has good replacement hardware ...

DOVETAIL FireSight SET:

Fully adjustable rear metallic FireSight fits all standard 3/8 inch dovetails on most Marlin and Winchester models. Front FireSight steel bead replaces existing factory bead. Light gathering fiber optics for most lever action rifles with ramped front sights.

click here to view a picture

Item #70270 - Marlin 25N & 25MN $29.95

Item #60217 - Dovetail Fire Sight Set $36.95

Item #70742 - Marlin 925, 925M, 60Blue, 915Y Blue, 983T, 981T, 795 Blue $29.95

Item #62261 - 5/16 inch Rear Sight Only $19.95​

and I'm wondering if #62661 might be the ticket. You can see the picture on the Williams website. It "appears" to be nicely hunkered-down.

Or the complete 60217 set?

Does the Rossi have a 3/8 inch dovetail?
 
Just a little update in and amongst all this sight talk...For all you who have ordered holsters/belts, they are a little back logged and are due to be ready mid September. I'll update you early September and have them out as soon as I get them...

Thanks,

Gary
 
Foxer, I did not know that that sight-adjustment info was "out there" and thank you for explaining it. Do you think that what works for rifle-length barrels can be directly and mathematically extrapolated to a pistol-length side radius? I have no clue, but sometimes it doesn't work-out that way.
Click to expand...

It should. it's just working it out to a single poi change at a given range so the radius variable shouldn't matter if it's small or larger. Certainly should be pretty close.

I guess that the only way we'll find out is when someone slaps on that taller front sight and goes to the range. I notice in the ballistics charts for 240 grain .44 Magnum that a 100-yard "second-zero" means about a 15-20 yard first-zero ... which I'm looking for.
Click to expand...

Should be very close, but remember that those ballistics charts are often done based on a shorter barrel than we have. Adding a little extra velocity for the fact we have 12 inch barrels, not 6 or 8, you may be on at 15 but just under an inch high at 20. But seriously - an inch is nothing, it's super easy to compensate for and in a defensive situation it won't make any difference. And depending on the sights there may still be enough room to lower it a bit more if you really want to be 'bang on'.

Does the Rossi have a 3/8 inch dovetail?
Click to expand...

Well information on the web seems to say it's a 3/8ths, but I've called the rossi support line and they're going to get back to me with the exact dimensions of front and rear sights. They have to call brazil to be sure :) So it may take a little bit.

I also note that williams sells a front ramp that locks into dovetails:

A shortened version of the popular
streamlined ramp. It is easily
installed. It can be screwed on,
sweated on, or installed with an
optional dovetail lock that fits
into standard 3/8” dovetails.
Available in 1/8”, 3/16”, 9/32”
and 3/8” heights.
Click to expand...

They sell other front sight risers as well if it's a different size, so a simple solution might be to raise the front sight an eight of an inch or even 3/16ths, and then you should have plenty of room up and down.
 
Foxer,

In the picture, does it look / appear to you that the notch on the Williams dovetail rear sight

(Item #62261 - 5/16 inch Rear Sight)

can be any lower than the notch on our bottomed-out Ranch Hand rear sights?

With the sight elevator completely removed, the bottom of my sight notch appears to be exactly at 5/16 inch.
 
No...the rear sight dovetail is .390
Click to expand...

I read that on the skinner site, but it seems to conflict with other reports.

That's why i called rossi to find out. I'll post the info as soon as i get it.
 
In the picture, does it look / appear to you that the notch on the Williams dovetail rear sight

(Item #62261 - 5/16 inch Rear Sight)

can be any lower than the notch on our bottomed-out Ranch Hand rear sights?
Click to expand...

I doubt it - i can't see it being substantially lower at all. But - with a .50 bead or if necessary one of their bead risers giving an even higher front sight it should still be ok. Once I know the exact sizes of our front and rear slots we should be able to figure out a solution. I think raising the front is likely the best option if possible because then all the rear options out there become available. Even williams smallest riser with a .5 sight will give .5125 which should be plenty even with a few of the options out there. They also have a 'straight' riser which is .270, which obviously would put you at .77, which is a hell of a lot higher than what we have now.

It would appear as tho that's what they did on the chipawa version - just used a sight riser to get the sight up to an acceptable level.
 
Good sight-installation link

Hi guys,

If it looks like we'll be switching-up to new dovetailed sights and maybe (yikes) doing it ourselves, here's a good straightforward link with lots of explanation and good pictures.

hxxp://www.realguns.com/archives/188.htm
 
Thanks boomer.

Honestly tho it's not that hard. I've done it before - and i'm a gunsmith in much the same way wendi cukier is a fitness instructor.
 
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