US GI wanting .308 back
- Thread starter ldhill
- Start date
FalconView is better for that, than Google Earth.
The "article" was complete BS
As for the hunting issue -- its not really the case.
In hunting you typically use a soft point bullet that will mushroom and stay intact so as to maximize the wound track in a solid projectile, but in order to have the meat edible the bullet must stay intact -- not leaving shards of metal throught the wound.
Since I have no intention on eating the people I shoot - (and I hope your not either) the issue of a soft point is not a limiting factor with relation to bullet construction/selection. Mk262 Mod1 is a relatively long projectile that will yaw in tissue - and at about 2200fps impact velocity or higher the stresses on the projectile when it yaw will be too much and it will fragment - sending secondary missles off - making a much more violent wound.
M855 and M193 will also yaw and fragment but at impact velocities of 2500-2700 fps and higher. Addtionally due to the weight and construction they do not do as much damage (or potential damage) as Mk262 Mod1
The "article" was complete BS
As for the hunting issue -- its not really the case.
In hunting you typically use a soft point bullet that will mushroom and stay intact so as to maximize the wound track in a solid projectile, but in order to have the meat edible the bullet must stay intact -- not leaving shards of metal throught the wound.
Since I have no intention on eating the people I shoot - (and I hope your not either) the issue of a soft point is not a limiting factor with relation to bullet construction/selection. Mk262 Mod1 is a relatively long projectile that will yaw in tissue - and at about 2200fps impact velocity or higher the stresses on the projectile when it yaw will be too much and it will fragment - sending secondary missles off - making a much more violent wound.
M855 and M193 will also yaw and fragment but at impact velocities of 2500-2700 fps and higher. Addtionally due to the weight and construction they do not do as much damage (or potential damage) as Mk262 Mod1
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Just found this on Wikipedia:
An April 2002 presentation by the Natick Soldier Center presented by LTC Charlie Dean and SFC Sam Newland reported on lessons learned from M4 use in Afghanistan (such as use during Operation Anaconda):
* 34% of soldiers reported that their M4's handguards rattle and become excessively hot when firing.
* 15% reported that they had troubles zeroing the M68 reflex sight.
* 35% added barber brushes and 24% added dental picks to their cleaning kits.
* Soldiers reported the following malfunctions:
o 20% reported double-feeding.
o 15% reported feeding jams.
o 13% reported that feeding problems were due to magazines.
* 89% of soldiers reported confidence in the weapon.
* 20% were dissatisfied with its ease of maintenance.
Soldiers requested the following changes:
* 55% requested the firearm be made lighter
* 20% requested a larger magazine
[edit]
So 89% were confident in M4
An April 2002 presentation by the Natick Soldier Center presented by LTC Charlie Dean and SFC Sam Newland reported on lessons learned from M4 use in Afghanistan (such as use during Operation Anaconda):
* 34% of soldiers reported that their M4's handguards rattle and become excessively hot when firing.
* 15% reported that they had troubles zeroing the M68 reflex sight.
* 35% added barber brushes and 24% added dental picks to their cleaning kits.
* Soldiers reported the following malfunctions:
o 20% reported double-feeding.
o 15% reported feeding jams.
o 13% reported that feeding problems were due to magazines.
* 89% of soldiers reported confidence in the weapon.
* 20% were dissatisfied with its ease of maintenance.
Soldiers requested the following changes:
* 55% requested the firearm be made lighter
* 20% requested a larger magazine
[edit]
So 89% were confident in M4
Personally I think being able to carry a third more 5.56 than 308 is more important in most cases than the differences in lethality. Every grunt would want more and lighter bullets that could kill like 50cals. A big improvment in
capacity is worth a tradeoff in lethality. Mines are designed to injure rather than kill because it takes 2 men out of action.
capacity is worth a tradeoff in lethality. Mines are designed to injure rather than kill because it takes 2 men out of action.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Never been in any firefight when I was in the service. But I did get to spend plenty of quality time humping/shooting both the C1 and the C7... Given the choice, I'd take the C7 (With metal magazines)
- For the same payload, you have more ammo.
- Easier to shoot accuratly.
Just my 2cents worth...
- For the same payload, you have more ammo.
- Easier to shoot accuratly.
Just my 2cents worth...
Me and my brother just had a good laugh at a lot of this thread. Nobody in his brigade wants to carry a .308. Loves shooting the M14 at the range but does not like carrying it. He also hates his M4 because he is a 203 gunner and has to carry all sorts or extra rounds besides the 16 required. He loves the ACOGS because they always work. Hates the red dots becuase they always fail for some rewason.Everyone in his platoon prefers flash lights to NODs because the NODs are too heavy and never work. Hates the mounts they are issued for the flashlites because they are not designed for the flashlite. Says the M9 pistols that are issued are so worn out that if you saw them in a store you would not even bother to pick one up. His unit just got folding stocks for the 249 so they can be used for room clearing. 240 crews travel in trucks so the weight is not an issue. He also says nobody in his unit would consider even asking to carry the old long M16A2.
Clobbersauras said:
If you talked to retired CF or other Commonwealth soldiers when the .308 was introduced they would tell you that it was inadequate, and that the .303 was God's own hammer when it came to killing. Soldiers are kind of conservative, retired soldiers are incredibly conservative. Learned that one from Dad,#3 TR, RE.
None of our MMG platoons wanted the GPMG when it came into service, they all asked for yaers to return to the vickers rebarrel if necessary but the old gun was the best. I loathed giving up my GPMG for an LMG (Bren) for an Ulster tour untill I had fired it a few times on the range. I moaned like hell when they were withdrawn and the GPMGs brought back. I also luckily refused to carry an L86 LSW in 5.56 and put up with the GPMG or took a rifle instead when they were forced on us!
in fact its quite the contrary that is going on. the m14 gets more and more remouved and replace by tuned spr because the guys in the field are saying they have a tough time shooting the m14 accurately and that the 223 sniperguns are easier to shoot and also etter in multiple target application.
There is a great SOCNET thread on the M14 (and why its sucks) by REAL BTDT's
IMHO the M1A/M305's are useful in Canada for hunting and non range shooting, but dont mistake advantages in Canadian civilian owbership for battlefield utility.
IMHO the M1A/M305's are useful in Canada for hunting and non range shooting, but dont mistake advantages in Canadian civilian owbership for battlefield utility.
The whole .308 versus 5.56 thread was wrong in the first place. If the US hadnt foisted the 7.62x51mm rouund on Nato then the UK and possibly commonwealth forces would have had the superb 7mm round for the Rifle No. 9 Mk1. Roll on another 10 years and whilst we are using studies in Nato to prove that rounds over 5mm are excessive the ideal calibre being around 4.85mm the Yanks again foist 5.56x 45mm on everyone. It took 2 years of trials to prove that their bullet weight and barrel twist wasnt going to be accepted but again we danced to their tune. Surely if they go to another calbire now they should either pay for everyone else's new weapons and ammo or shut up and pay attention for once!
the 5.56 round is often quoted here in favour of pro centrefire .22 ammo to be used on smaller UK deer but some organisations are holding out to the last despite it being legal in Scotland. No sense in the claim that we would be tempted to shoot fallow with .223 when out for roe as that would make the most law abiding sector of society criminals. No despite the fact that 5.56mm kills adult males on a daily basis when used under stressful conditions the same round is insufficient for deer weighing less than man!
the 5.56 round is often quoted here in favour of pro centrefire .22 ammo to be used on smaller UK deer but some organisations are holding out to the last despite it being legal in Scotland. No sense in the claim that we would be tempted to shoot fallow with .223 when out for roe as that would make the most law abiding sector of society criminals. No despite the fact that 5.56mm kills adult males on a daily basis when used under stressful conditions the same round is insufficient for deer weighing less than man!
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IMHO the only in field people that "Need"the .308 is Snipers( I would guess that most would want the .338LM for longer ranges)...the 5.56 is a very good round and one can carry more ammo....
the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 will most likely go the way of the DOE DOE
but what the #### do I know??
Jamie Barkwell
the 6.8 SPC and the 6.5 will most likely go the way of the DOE DOE
but what the #### do I know??
Jamie Barkwell
USP said:
Depends on the twist of your barrel. 1-9 the heaviest I have shot well is 69gr which can be touch and go with 1-9 twist. Your mileage may vary. It would not stabilize a 77 gr. You will need a 1-7 twist for 77 gr. That all being said, the 55 gr continues to penetrate paper with the required performance....
Cheer
Jeff
