Don't let the word cheap stir things up. Looking for thoughts and ideas on whether these loads would be good enough for close in(in the house) defence. Or is the shot to small for anything but clay?Any one ever do any testing on old junker cars,doors etc to see how the shotgun handle. I've seen the hollywood way just want to know the truth. Thanks for your time and input.
Using cheap trap loads for defence?
- Thread starter millwright
- Start date
Unless you are expecting the Hell's Angels or Zombie Jehovas Witnesses, I suspect a 2 3/4 inch 1 ounce load of 7.5's to be pretty final to the recipient at the near contact distances of your home. They have the added benefit of being unlikely to perforate both sheets of drywall into adjacent rooms. I'd feel better with BB's.
Birdshot will only produce shallow wounds with very little penetration.
The following is from The Box o Truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.
A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.
In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.
Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.
It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
The following is from The Box o Truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.
A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.
In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.
Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.
When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:
"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.
It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
A 1 1/8oz load of 7 1/2 shot will blow a one gallon can of paint to pieces at close range. At a distance of across the room or down a hallway the pattern of a 12ga is isn't going to be very big and I can tell you that if you shot me with it I wouldn't really be in any kid of mood to keep trying it do what ever it was that got me shot. Number 7 1/2 will penatrate feathers and skin at 30yrds and farther. It wont make a mess like buckshot will but at 30 feet it will #### you right up.
Tim
Tim
millwright said:
I think talcum powder loaded in a shot shell would be enough for most home defence work. Christ I mean @ 15-30ft getting hit with the the wad is going to make the perp think twice about carrying on.
Hurting them is not enough. Your ammunition must be enough to incapacitate them. That may require death in some cases. If you are not prepared to use lethal force, you should not be reaching for a firearm. It could end up biting you in the ass. Bird shot is definitely not adequate.
In Edmonton in the 70's a nut case wielding a shotgun loaded with birdshot entered an Atco trailer (being used as a coffee room) at the Stelco plant. He shot one man in the leg behind the knee. He nearly lost his leg, there is a big chunk of it missing to this day. There are still dozens of pellets imbedded in his bones, that the surgeons do not want to remove. He walks with a plastic brace from his calf to his thigh, and has surgery every few years.
The madman shot another Stelco employee who died.
Please do not think that birdshot is not lethal, or that it only causes flesh wounds. While 00 Buck is no doubt the better stopper, anyone so unfortunate as to be shot by a load of #7 1/2 at "inside the house" ranges would be very lucky to live.
Sharptail
The madman shot another Stelco employee who died.
Please do not think that birdshot is not lethal, or that it only causes flesh wounds. While 00 Buck is no doubt the better stopper, anyone so unfortunate as to be shot by a load of #7 1/2 at "inside the house" ranges would be very lucky to live.
Sharptail
I dont know where they came up with bird shot only penatrateing two layers of drywall and only leaving a flesh wound on a guy at 6ft. It must have been some heavy duty drywall and Superman. I went out side after reading the above post and took a 1290fps 1oz load of #7 1/2 (factory Remington Game Load) and shot it a 1" thick piece of oak board. Thats some hard ####. With an IC choke and at a distance of 6 ft it left a hole I could almost put my fist through. Not what I would call a non lethal flesh wound.
Tim
Tim
I think the the birdshot being not effective was studies with it being used on balistic gelatin...and the thought that at close range...it might fail to incapicate a fat attacker wearing bulkly clothing...not that he wouldnt bleed out and die or be seriously wounded but rather it lacked any effective stopping power...
also that birdshot would not effectively penetrate much pass flesh and muscle and therefore not reach any internal organs.... Ive read some anedoctal evidence where lots claim its a poor stopper.. as some choose it for the reason that it doesnt penetrate drywall and thus you have less worry about injuring/killing others in adjacent rooms..
I think the reality is that if you let go with a 12 guage at night in a confined space..your gonna be blind and deaf anyways...so is it really that much of an issue?
Arguable you could say that an Ar15 is safe in that its high velocity rounds have a tendency towards fragmentation and therefore may be a safer alternative over high powered handgun rounds...
try out the number 4 Buck...low recoil...and good balance of power and pellets
also that birdshot would not effectively penetrate much pass flesh and muscle and therefore not reach any internal organs.... Ive read some anedoctal evidence where lots claim its a poor stopper.. as some choose it for the reason that it doesnt penetrate drywall and thus you have less worry about injuring/killing others in adjacent rooms..
I think the reality is that if you let go with a 12 guage at night in a confined space..your gonna be blind and deaf anyways...so is it really that much of an issue?
Arguable you could say that an Ar15 is safe in that its high velocity rounds have a tendency towards fragmentation and therefore may be a safer alternative over high powered handgun rounds...
try out the number 4 Buck...low recoil...and good balance of power and pellets
Last edited:
Calling BS on the quoted article. At close range medium size shot can sever limbs in some cases. Those who doubt can experiment with plywood and MDF (just wear safetly glasses - splinters, travelling at high speed are nasty!)
We had two alledged drug dealers shot in their living room by a unhappy customer standing at the doorway(charged with attempted murder) (something about if you want your kids back pay us the money you owe us)One came into our shop later looking to get t-shirts made up with a picture of the stomach wounds.Shallow wounds but very wide.He wasnt able to come back later (something about threatning an rcmp members life)
I guess the crown prosecutor thought the independent business men were too traumatized to be charged for just pretending to kidnap children.
I guess the crown prosecutor thought the independent business men were too traumatized to be charged for just pretending to kidnap children.
Last edited:
I dropped a rotten tree last weekend with heavy loaded #2...It took a bunch mind you & I was about 25 meters away...just messing around and all...safe play. I would not want to be on the recieving end of one of those blasts!
That being said ...IMHO I would have a mix of shells
To quote a members sig line (sorry can't remember who's)
'bird,bird,buck,buck.ball,ball bayonet'
That being said ...IMHO I would have a mix of shells
To quote a members sig line (sorry can't remember who's)
'bird,bird,buck,buck.ball,ball bayonet'
canadian hunter312
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County
most ranges within a house will likely be 25ft or less and most if not all use pumps or semi's for home defense. that means u could possibly get at least 3 shots into the intruder.
30ft is only 10 yards. last time i check my 870 will put any load through a hole the size of a fist at that range. doesnt matter what size shot you have at such a close distance as long as it is a heavy load it will knock the guy on his arse.
for home defense i think id use a challenger shell. 3" 1 7/8oz lead BB's. if that wont knock someone down at 10 yards i better start running!
30ft is only 10 yards. last time i check my 870 will put any load through a hole the size of a fist at that range. doesnt matter what size shot you have at such a close distance as long as it is a heavy load it will knock the guy on his arse.
for home defense i think id use a challenger shell. 3" 1 7/8oz lead BB's. if that wont knock someone down at 10 yards i better start running!
