Using cheap trap loads for defence?
- Thread starter millwright
- Start date
One thing to think about as far ending up in court is concerned is that "I heard an intruder so I unlocked my shotgun and loaded it with the shells I use for hunting pheasants" might play better than "loaded it with two slugs, two buckshot, and a beanbag" or "loaded with my supertactical death slugs".
It sounds like underpenetration may be a problem; one solution to that would be to keep pumping lead into general area of the problem's chest until he stops coming at you -- if one load penetrates around 4" in flesh, i'd calculate that by the time the tube is empty you should be able to see daylight...
Two "warning shots" in the chest followed by moving towards the face could also work pretty well.
If I was working on some sort of tactical mall ninja squad where I was shooting people all the time, I would probably choose buckshot. If I were experiencing home invasions every friday night, probably buckshot. In the real world, I'm not convinced that the advantages of birdshot wouldn't make up for the disadvantages.
It sounds like underpenetration may be a problem; one solution to that would be to keep pumping lead into general area of the problem's chest until he stops coming at you -- if one load penetrates around 4" in flesh, i'd calculate that by the time the tube is empty you should be able to see daylight...
Two "warning shots" in the chest followed by moving towards the face could also work pretty well.
If I was working on some sort of tactical mall ninja squad where I was shooting people all the time, I would probably choose buckshot. If I were experiencing home invasions every friday night, probably buckshot. In the real world, I'm not convinced that the advantages of birdshot wouldn't make up for the disadvantages.
trubluscrew
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- SW Ontario
Head shots are nice. But when SHTF, I don't want to waste any oportunities. Come on, we've all heard the excuses on the range. I changed my grip, the loads are shooting hot, chokes not quite right, etc... IF and the big word is IF, I was put in that kind of situation, I would aim centre mass
As to JKF's court scenario. I wouldn't say I grabbed the bird shots or the slugs or whatever. I would say I grabbed the first box of shells that fit the shotgun. If you stated that you chose bird shot over slugs or vise-versa, it would give the defense council ammo (no pun itended).
Defence council -You specifically chose bird shot to shoot at the intruder?
Me--Uh, yes I didn't want to kill him (bad answer, they could say your life was not in imminent danger)
or
ME--Uh, yeah. I didn't want over penetration into the walls and possibley harm another person (bad answer, they say "so you've thought this out before? I believe, your honour, this was premeditated")
You really can't win by giving out too much info.
As to JKF's court scenario. I wouldn't say I grabbed the bird shots or the slugs or whatever. I would say I grabbed the first box of shells that fit the shotgun. If you stated that you chose bird shot over slugs or vise-versa, it would give the defense council ammo (no pun itended).
Defence council -You specifically chose bird shot to shoot at the intruder?
Me--Uh, yes I didn't want to kill him (bad answer, they could say your life was not in imminent danger)
or
ME--Uh, yeah. I didn't want over penetration into the walls and possibley harm another person (bad answer, they say "so you've thought this out before? I believe, your honour, this was premeditated")
You really can't win by giving out too much info.
No One is trained to wound. LEO's/Mil/Corr. all taught that if you need to shoot, you shoot to kill, that means CM shots until they no longer pose a threat, that is the only reason to ever shoot another human being. To assume anything less is ridiculously naive...
Purpose of the bean bag as a first round is basically a 'freebie'. If you go to court because you killed an intruder, they may look a little more favorable on you because to tried to 'go easy' on the guy with the first a less-than-lethal round. You look like you gave the guy a chance and had no choice but to elevate to the next level of DF... If this was any other non-communist country, you would not have to have a 'CYA' round first, a clean justifieable kill is ok...Here they try and hang ya...
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My friend shot a bear with a shotgun. I asked him what size of shot he used and he said 71/2. I said why would any one shoot a bear with bird shot. He said his dog was barking down a hole and he went over to see what it was when the bear came charging out.At the shot the bear slid back down the hole and out of sight.He called his brother to help him get the bear out. Removeing his belt he climbed into the hole and put the belt around its neck and pulled it out.His big fear was if the bear was still alive it might not like him climbing in beside him. Yes he is a hillbilly.
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Plywood and metal doors aren't great judges of penetration. I've ripped big hoels is a pickup box with 7.5 shotshells, at close range. Cool, but the plywookd and the metal are just one layer of not very elastic materiqal, unlike human flesh.
The wadidng fomr a birdshiot shell will often pnetrate through a 3/8" plywood, it probably would not go too far into mans chest.
Use a box of wet newspaper, put a heavy sweaqter or similr over it, and then try the penetration test.
The wadidng fomr a birdshiot shell will often pnetrate through a 3/8" plywood, it probably would not go too far into mans chest.
Use a box of wet newspaper, put a heavy sweaqter or similr over it, and then try the penetration test.
Gatehouse is right about the brunt trama force of birdshot!!
There is no penetration,and thats what kills big animals!!! If you are so absolute as to a shotgun as your personal defence weapon at least use 001 buck or S&B 00 buck!!!
Bird shot is to kill birds(and not tear them up so badly that you can eat them)!
Buck shot (by deffinition is for bucks) 150-200 pound animals!!!
You don't use buck-shot on birds,why would you use bird shot on bucks?
And Old Painless(box of truth) is right on!!!
I'm not saying that if you put the barrel of your shotgun against ones head that 7&1/2 bird shot will not remove all criminal intent!!
Just it is (or should not be number one choice) for home deffence!!!
Bob
There is no penetration,and thats what kills big animals!!! If you are so absolute as to a shotgun as your personal defence weapon at least use 001 buck or S&B 00 buck!!!
Bird shot is to kill birds(and not tear them up so badly that you can eat them)!
Buck shot (by deffinition is for bucks) 150-200 pound animals!!!
You don't use buck-shot on birds,why would you use bird shot on bucks?
And Old Painless(box of truth) is right on!!!
I'm not saying that if you put the barrel of your shotgun against ones head that 7&1/2 bird shot will not remove all criminal intent!!
Just it is (or should not be number one choice) for home deffence!!!
Bob
M
MackDaddy
Guest
I have a box of 5 shotshells here and it reads...
Federal 12 GA/CAL Magnum 2 3/4 Inch, 70mm, 11 1/4 OZ, 35 GR, Rifled Slug HP. Muzzle Vel 1520 FPS / 463 M/SEC
I'm pretty confident that a few of these would stop an intruder...
Federal 12 GA/CAL Magnum 2 3/4 Inch, 70mm, 11 1/4 OZ, 35 GR, Rifled Slug HP. Muzzle Vel 1520 FPS / 463 M/SEC
I'm pretty confident that a few of these would stop an intruder...
Yeah, but ya got to hit 'em with it..hence once reason that guys use Buck, and also over penetration or misses can kill your own family members or neighbors....
Not sure what your experience is, but half asleep, moving target, low light, amped up...better off with Buck for the first few shots...slug when he's close enough and still coming at ya!
Not sure what your experience is, but half asleep, moving target, low light, amped up...better off with Buck for the first few shots...slug when he's close enough and still coming at ya!
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If you actually think you are going to need to blow rounds off in your house to save your life, maybe you should consider moving somewhere safer.
Yeah I know, #### happens, but there are a lot of other ways we could die with a much greater possibility, that we don't plan for.
Yeah I know, #### happens, but there are a lot of other ways we could die with a much greater possibility, that we don't plan for.
Waterfowler said:
Yeah but in light of recent events and a society that seems to be heading towards more and more violence, could it not hurt to 'plan' for a 'what if' scenario? I would rather have a plan and not need it then need a plan and not have one....
Put it this way.
There's fifty bazillion threads already that go on ad nauseum planning for bear attacks.
If a gun and load is enough to stop a 900lb Grizzly bear, it's good enough for any other dangerous two legged predators you might encounter.
There's fifty bazillion threads already that go on ad nauseum planning for bear attacks.
If a gun and load is enough to stop a 900lb Grizzly bear, it's good enough for any other dangerous two legged predators you might encounter.
I can see my self:
-Oh! sh*t! someone is braking in my house!
-What do I do?
-Get my shotgun!
-Crap, where are the keys to the safe?
-Ok, safe is open. Sh*t, I can hear the guy coming down the hall.
-Damn, I left the trigger lock on, what's the code again?
-F@#k the bastard is in the guest's room...HURRY!
-AMMO, AMMO, WHERE'S MY 3"BUCK SHOT? Ouch! I just bangned my big toe on that stupide ammo crate for the SKS...
-Ah! there it is, darne cardboard box...COME ON!!! Gotcha! One, two,..., 5 !
-COME AND GET IT A$$HOLE!
-If I kill this guy, will I go to prison?
-Should I shoot him in the leg?
-What will the judge say?
-!@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@
-Get the phone and call the cops!
-...and dispatcher PLEASE tell your boys that I am armed with a shotgun, I have a blue shirt, I don't wan't any accidents here!
My friends say I have an active imagination
-Oh! sh*t! someone is braking in my house!
-What do I do?
-Get my shotgun!
-Crap, where are the keys to the safe?
-Ok, safe is open. Sh*t, I can hear the guy coming down the hall.
-Damn, I left the trigger lock on, what's the code again?
-F@#k the bastard is in the guest's room...HURRY!
-AMMO, AMMO, WHERE'S MY 3"BUCK SHOT? Ouch! I just bangned my big toe on that stupide ammo crate for the SKS...
-Ah! there it is, darne cardboard box...COME ON!!! Gotcha! One, two,..., 5 !
-COME AND GET IT A$$HOLE!
-If I kill this guy, will I go to prison?
-Should I shoot him in the leg?
-What will the judge say?
-!@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@
-Get the phone and call the cops!
-...and dispatcher PLEASE tell your boys that I am armed with a shotgun, I have a blue shirt, I don't wan't any accidents here!
My friends say I have an active imagination
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roadwarrior said:I can see my self:
-Oh! sh*t! someone is braking in my house!
-What do I do?
-Get my shotgun!
-Crap, where are the keys to the safe?
-Ok, safe is open. Sh*t, I can hear the guy coming down the hall.
-Damn, I left the trigger lock on, what's the code again?
-F@#k the bastard is in the guest's room...HURRY!
-AMMO, AMMO, WHERE'S MY 3"BUCK SHOT? Ouch! I just bangned my big toe on that stupide ammo crate for the SKS...
-Ah! there it is, darne cardboard box...COME ON!!! Gotcha! One, two,..., 5 !
-COME AND GET IT A$$HOLE!
-If I kill this guy, will I go to prison?
-Should I shoot him in the leg?
-What will the judge say?
-!@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@
-Get the phone and call the cops!
-...and dispatcher PLEASE tell your boys that I am armed with a shotgun, I have a blue shirt, I don't wan't any accidents here!
Humorous, yes, but actually quite a realistic scenario. Also, it's a good idea (if possible of course) to call 911 before the guy gets to you, and stay on the phone so there's a record of you WARNING the intruder that you're in the bedroom, and prepared to use force if he enters. Then don't open the door. If he comes in, he forced your hand.
It is a common fallacy that it's not legal to use lethal force in self defense in Canada. It /is/ a right that's severely curtailed. You must be faced with threat of greivous bodily harm *AND* not be able to escape. Holeing yourself up in your bedroom with the door closed and a loaded shotgun qualifies.
That said, no matter how righteous the shot is, you WILL have to go to court to defend your actions. Do NOT be stupid enough to tell the cops what happened. Do what they tell you, but if they ask you a question, demand to see your lawyer. If you don't say anything, you can't say the wrong thing. People that try to talk their way out of things usually just end up torpedoing their own case.
