Using the slide stop to drop the slide on an empty chamber (IPSC Global Village)

[SandRoad]

?

Hammer down refers to the slide being forward, and then pressing the trigger.

I am not talking about hammer down after the slide is closed. I am talking about dropping the slide on an empty chamber



The issue with dropping the slide on a 1911 when your finger is OFF the trigger is the hammer is being held back by the sear and NOT the stop on the hammer/disconnecter.

Normally when the gun cycles, the trigger is held back and the hammer is held back by the disconnecter when the slide move forward. When you RELEASE the trigger, the hammer is "reset" and only then does the sear again engage the hammer. (without the disconnecter, the gun would keep firing as long as your finger is pulling the trigger because the sear surfaces are not engaged)

By letting the slide slam forward WITHOUT holding the trigger back, it is the sear surfaces that are holding back the hammer, and this is what can bugger up the smooth engagement surfaces of your nice trigger job.

It doesn't make any difference on a standard gun without a good trigger job, if the trigger is a little worse or rougher, who cares.....

(note that I may have gotten the terminology wrong, but I believe the function is essentially correct, and what Yam is saying, but in different words.)

Also, as much as many people cringe, the safest way of dropping a slide on a LOADED pistol is to have the trigger firmly pulled back. That is because it is not relying on the sear engagement surfaces to prevent the hammer from following the slide. So if you are having hammer follow when you drop the slide, holding the trigger back is a temporary fix.

 

[eigenvector]

Seriously.... I call BS. I don't know about you guys, but that slide is whipping back and forth with a hell of a lot of force while the gun is firing. Letting it drop manually is not going to hurt it more.

The force is the same, but in the normal cycling of the slide it is decelerated more gradually (due to chambering a fresh round) than it is if you hit the slide stop on an empty chamber.

Personally, it's a non-issue as I always release the slide with my hand (not the slide stop) regardless of whether or not there is a loaded mag in the gun.

 

[maurice]

Scully nicely posted Mr. Hilton Yam's gracious explanation of why a G.I. 1911 was, if not immune, at least far more tolerant of slide dropping. A 1911 is capable of being set up verry nicely, far more so than probably anything other than a nice Smith wheelgun. Having set the 1911 up, it makes little sense to batter it down. Just like why you do not fire a tuned S&W wheelgun single action. It can be done, but it is less than good for the carefully stoned and shaped sear.

But, Yam also says in anther post, that slingshotting the slide after an emergency reload induced more failures in courses he has seen than tripping the slide stop. So, use the right technique for the task at hand. Can't be too difficult. Let's see now, hmm threat still standing, gun is empty, reload and trip slide stop. Prepare to engage. Done. End of watch, stage, whatever, remove mag, eject round in chamber, lock open, verify empty chamber, ease slide down on empty gun. Engage safety. No need to trip trigger, except in confused settings like IPSC, IDPA, certain military formtions, who prefer AD's to safe guns. Oh, well.

WHat is a military formtion? AD's don't happen very often in IPSC. IDPA and most military formtions as the shooter is trained enough to unload the gun properly,...mag out, slide back, "verify empty chamber", then slide forward and dryfire once.

 

[Onagoth]

Is this a problem for all pistols? Or just 1911s?

 

[NAA]

Is this a problem for all pistols? Or just 1911s?

Personally, I make it a practice not to do it on any semi-auto pistol I own, handle or shoot.

Even the Glocks....

NAA.

 

[relliott]

In the old days of IPSC and the early tuning jobs on 1911's, fire control parts, dimensional tolerance and metallurgy weren't what they are now...especially as they are in high end 2011 competition pistols. Sear bounce was much more likely to result in problems in custom tuned guns with reduced sear engagement, as the softer, less closely fitted sears could gradually peen and loose their engagement. It wasn't great for the standing lugs either.

However, even though the modern variants tend to be much more durable, the 19/2011 single action pistol is designed to have the slide moving forward at full velocity while stripping a round into the chamber (decelerating the slide) and with the disconnector activated so the sear is not in contact with the hammer hooks. Though you may get away with it indefinitely depending on your gun and how it is set up, it is unnecessary in any situation other than lock-work testing to drop the slide on an empty chamber. You may not care on a $600.00 Norc., but I would be most displeased if for instance; someone I was showing my $5000.00 racing gun to just went ahead and did it without asking.

 

[IM_Lugger]

There is just no reason to slam the slide on an empty gun.

 

[TDC]

I am not talking about hammer down after the slide is closed. I am talking about dropping the slide on an empty chamber



The issue with dropping the slide on a 1911 when your finger is OFF the trigger is the hammer is being held back by the sear and NOT the stop on the hammer/disconnecter.

Normally when the gun cycles, the trigger is held back and the hammer is held back by the disconnecter when the slide move forward. When you RELEASE the trigger, the hammer is "reset" and only then does the sear again engage the hammer. (without the disconnecter, the gun would keep firing as long as your finger is pulling the trigger because the sear surfaces are not engaged)

By letting the slide slam forward WITHOUT holding the trigger back, it is the sear surfaces that are holding back the hammer, and this is what can bugger up the smooth engagement surfaces of your nice trigger job.

It doesn't make any difference on a standard gun without a good trigger job, if the trigger is a little worse or rougher, who cares.....

(note that I may have gotten the terminology wrong, but I believe the function is essentially correct, and what Yam is saying, but in different words.)

Also, as much as many people cringe, the safest way of dropping a slide on a LOADED pistol is to have the trigger firmly pulled back. That is because it is not relying on the sear engagement surfaces to prevent the hammer from following the slide. So if you are having hammer follow when you drop the slide, holding the trigger back is a temporary fix.

Again, what part of the fundamental four rules of firearms handling do people not understand.

ALL FIREARMS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

NEVER POINT A FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON TARGET AND YOU'VE MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO FIRE

BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND BEYOND.

Closing the slide with your finger on the trigger is an epic fail. Regardless of a trigger job or not, if your firearm can't handle the abuse its crap. If the forces involved with closing on an empty chamber damage or otherwise affect the trigger job, the work is poor. If a trigger job is essential for making hits, you need to seek some professional training.

TDC

 

[Antoine22]

During a IPSC match, when you are ordered to hammer down, you need to press the trigger.

 

[CanuckShooter]

I always cringe when I see people doing it at my club as it is totally unnecessary.

But then again, I also cringe when I see people dryfiring Glocks.

For some reason, there are people who think just because it is a gun, and is made of steel "ain't nuthin' gonna hert it". I never understood that. Sure, it may not muck things up after doing it X amount of times, or it may never. But the potential is there, and for the small amount of effort it takes to ease the slide forward. Even though it may not look as 'cool'.

 

[relliott]

For some reason, there are people who think just because it is a gun, and is made of steel "ain't nuthin' gonna hert it". I never understood that. Sure, it may not muck things up after doing it X amount of times, or it may never. But the potential is there, and for the small amount of effort it takes to ease the slide forward. Even though it may not look as 'cool'.

Yes. Even though it may never cause a problem, I just don't care to abuse expensive equipment in this way. I work too hard for my money and the risk/gain potential just isn't worth it for me. Nothing sucks worse than spending bags of money to travel to a major match, using up preciously limited vacations days, only to have your gun snap the standing lugs or start doubling on you midway through the event...all for something that may be preventable.

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't slam the doors on my car either.

 

[Ftaview]

Springfield Armory does not want you to do this, on their 1911's, here is a cut and paste from their manual

20

UNLOADING

If slide is already in “locked back” position:
1. Point gun in safe direction.
2. Press magazine release button to
remove magazine.
3. From top and rear, carefully inspect
chamber to make sure it is empty.
4. Hold slide, disengage slide stop,
ease slide forward.

Notice: The slide of a 1911-A1 pistol should never
be released on an empty chamber; especially one
which has had an action job. Releasing the slide on
an empty chamber causes damage to the breech
face on the barrel and undue stress on all action
parts, including the hammer and the sear. This will
ruin the action job performed on your pistol.

5. Carefully lower hammer as described in the
HAMMER LOWERING section. (Page 22)

Pistol is not empty or unloaded until the chamber is empty and the magazine removed.


SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
GENESEO IL USA
MM123456

HAMMER LOWERING
22
1. Point gun in safe direction and ensure pistol
is unloaded.
2. Firmly hold gun, depressing grip safety.
3. Using non-shooting hand, firmly grasp hammer
with thumb and forefinger.
4. Be prepared for hammer movement.
Squeeze trigger.
5. Slowly lower hammer with thumb and forefinger
until it is fully forward.
6. Release trigger. (If the trigger is released early
the gun may be on the Safety Stop.)
Note: Always keep and carry your pistol with an
empty chamber and with the hammer forward (down)
until you intend to shoot, so your pistol cannot be fired
unintentionally.
Caution: If pistol is loaded, gun may
discharge if the hammer slips from your
grip during this procedure.

 

[BCRider]

Seriously.... I call BS. I don't know about you guys, but that slide is whipping back and forth with a hell of a lot of force while the gun is firing. Letting it drop manually is not going to hurt it more.

I fully agree. If your gun can't handle being closed on an empty chamber you bought a lemon. Oh hold on, is this another "1911" thing?? I thought they were the most reliable and dependable pistols ever made? On that note, why the special treatment for Norinco's I thought they were as good or better than brand name 1911's?

TDC

How is this any different from a lot of other gun related "don't do's"? Anyone with a rimfire gun knows that it's not a good thing to dry fire it due to the firing pin contacting the breech. It's just the way they have to be built to function. So it's common practice to not dry fire a rimfire gun. So now we have one more, don't drop the slide on an empty 1911.

It's not just in the gun world either. If you ever find yourself in a proper blacksmith's shop with a proper hardened face anvil and hit the anvil with a hammer you'd give the smith a heart attack. Such a blow that isn't cushioned by something is at risk of cracking the anvil face.

And as noted already by so many others it's a different situation when there's bullets in the gun. The drag of stripping them from the magazine and levering them into the chamber provides enough braking and cushioning to avoid any possible damage. So the two situations are not in any way comparable.

 

[Ftaview]

But dry firing a Springfield Armory XD is required, otherwise you cannot strip it down

FIELD STRIP
6. Pull the slide slightly to the rear to release the slide
stop lever. Then, firmly gripping the slide, allow the
slide to slowly move forward until the spring tension is
released. While holding the slide, pull and release the
trigger with the firearm pointed in a safe direction to
fully unlock the slide from the frame. (See Figure 25-1.)

7. Move the complete slide assembly forward and off the
frame. (See Figure 25-2.)
Before performing any disassembly, point firearm in safe direction, make sure the firearm is completely
unloaded (this includes the magazine and chamber). Wear eye protection.
25

And yes I realize this is not a 1911, it just shows that some pistols can be and or need to be dry fired

 

[relliott]

But dry firing a Springfield Armory XD is required, otherwise you cannot strip it down



And yes I realize this is not a 1911, it just shows that some pistols can be and or need to be dry fired

Dry fire is a different thing than slamming the slide on an empty chamber. You can dry fire a 1911 all you want.

 

[Ftaview]

Dry fire is a different thing than slamming the slide on an empty chamber. You can dry fire a 1911 all you want.

you are correct, I just reread the manual, as they put it, it's a way to get familiar with your pistol

 

[enefgee]

FWIW I don't drop the slide on ANY pistol (Glock/Smith/Sig/HK/Norc) it's just ignorant to do so.

 

[Mr. Spectacular]

But then again, I also cringe when I see people dryfiring Glocks.

You can dry fire Glocks no problem.

 

[Rutger]

The discussion is "Why is this an ignorant thing to do?". I own a Glock17 and I have found nothing in practical lore or the Glock instruction manual that would indicate dropping the slide on an empty chamber is better or worse than dropping the slide on a loaded chamber.

FWIW I don't drop the slide on ANY pistol (Glock/Smith/Sig/HK/Norc) it's just ignorant to do so.

 

[Jarlath]

It's a personal choice.
Dropping on an empty chamer vs. Easing the slide.

Same as people who refuse to use the slide stop lever to release the slide.
Use the slide release to close the slide or pull it back & release.