VERY Interesting IPSC Rule Question for Production…

Sorry...I was answering multiple posts in my reply

I got your point...I just don't think it meets the criteria of an Unsportsmanlike conduct DQ.

I also don't think it would give anyone an advantage, regardless of Classification.

Do a little test...think of your last few matches and how many stages this would have been anything but a complete waste of time.

for me yes it would be a compleat waste of time. i shoot a glock..

i understand what your saying but i think that some one might find it a advantage over someone eles and i just think its bending the rules abit if its done stage after stage after stage.

i think practice is the answer to this qestion flat out. if you cant practice your DA then what are you practicing. spend time in whats wrong

but really no argument here. its a waste of time and it should just be practiced to improve ones self shooting ability.
 
Ah screw it, for simplicities sake I'm just handing out a procedural to anyone that shows up with a CZ...lol
 
Just so we get this right..

Stage requires loaded condition.. "idiot, non-attentive" shooter doesn't get one in the chamber (by any means.. misfeed, whatever). Somehow gets hammer lowered (or forgets to rack the slide..).

Draws.. pulls trigger (while on target).. "click".. needs to correct round issue and get one into the chamber.. and NOW has to aim at the target, insert finger into trigger guard, lower hammer, and then shoot 1st "shot" double action..

Simple..
 
Just so we get this right..

Stage requires loaded condition.. "idiot, non-attentive" shooter doesn't get one in the chamber (by any means.. misfeed, whatever). Somehow gets hammer lowered (or forgets to rack the slide..).

Draws.. pulls trigger (while on target).. "click".. needs to correct round issue and get one into the chamber.. and NOW has to aim at the target, insert finger into trigger guard, lower hammer, and then shoot 1st "shot" double action..

Simple..

And you Sir win the sugar coated pretzel for a prize. Gives chamber checking a whole new meaning.

Take Care

Bob
 
Crosswind - well done on noticing the juxtaposition in the rules, however I think that if you read the rule,

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun.

This appears to be a clear istruction to the RO not to interfere with the competitor while they are getting ready - basically 'don't stop them making a mistake, OR trying to game it', NOT (IMHO) an instruction that they cannot issue penalties to a competitor who deliberately does not chamber a round.

APPENDIX D4: Production Division

Special conditions:

15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, #### the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action.

So this is pretty clear, however, I don't think the rules can be interpreted as saying that an RO cannot take action against a competitor who deliberately does not chamber a round. However if you want to avoid a penalty you must attempt a 'shot' double action.


So kinda begs the question, if you start with 11 and burn 1 double action how are you worse off than starting with 10 and racking the slide??


Of course the flipside is the question how 'on target' do you have to be to avoid a penalty? - if you look back at some of the classic IPSC pictures from the '80's shooting from the hip in bill drills was de-rigeur. On of the turning points in the sport was Brian Enos actually bringing the sights up to eye level and aiming.

So in the case of targets at a distance and a run down to start which is better - 1) start with no round in the gun, draw, 'attempt' a DA first shot (shout 'darn!') with the gun pointing in the direction of the targets and rack the slide as you run to your firing position, OR 2) Draw, fire your first DA towards the targets as you run down and then engage.

The answer??? - there is no answer apart from what you think gives you the best result on the stage on any given day, but this has been quite an entertaining thread to read :)
 
For the record I like Vinnie's interpretation that a "shot attempt" implies that a round is in the chamber. It's one thing to have a light strike or hard primer or other round or equipment failure. But a brain failure or intentional circumvention on the part of the shooter is what the rule book is there to address.

What appears to be missing is a clear definition of "shot attempt". As a result we have a whole new discussion between Vincent and the RO's on his side and those RO's that feel a DA dry fire of an empty chamber is "good enough".

Mention was made of the ability of some with practice to draw, dry fire, rack and be ready for the "real" first shot. But drawing and dry firing while still in the act of bringing the gun to bear seems to go against the rule where the finger must not be in the guard unless targets are being engaged. So at the very least the gun would need to be up more or less pointed downrange but perhaps close in to the chest when the dry fire was done.

And finally, the original intent was for DA/SA guns in the Production class to be fired in DA for the first round. If it turns out that a clarification is needed to establish this as iron clad then so be it. I would think that would be the way to get around this apparent loophole.
 
It's one thing to have a light strike or hard primer or other round or equipment failure.

But at the end of the day, or in this case at the end of the COF, how would the competitor's results/performance differ if it was a light strike or misfire compared to it being intentional or accidental? Has he/she gained any noticable advantage in either scenario?
 
So kinda begs the question, if you start with 11 and burn 1 double action how are you worse off than starting with 10 and racking the slide??

For one you are pretty much on target for follow up shots if you burn one. Your split especially if you are intentionally doing it will be much less then it would be if you had to rack because you have to release the gun with one hand, move the gun to rack it, rack it, re-grip the gun, re-acquire the target and shoot your first shot. It is much easier and faster to just squeeze the trigger one extra time.

Not to mention absolutely no risk of a procedural penalty!
 
also, after racking you would have to decock so the first attempted shot with a chambered round is DA.......

for those who cannot access the GV site, for clarification purposes Vince went to the Executive Council to get a re-word and eliminate the word "attempt", conclusion was it stands as is with a clarification of the ruling:

1st attempted shot DA with a chambered round= no procedural
1st attempted shot DA without a chambered round= one procedural (if the next shot with a chambered round is taken SA)

so if anyone forgets to chamber a round in Production div and attempts the first shot DA, to NOT receive one procedural they must chamber a round, decock, and attempt that shot with a chambered round in DA
 
For one you are pretty much on target for follow up shots if you burn one. Your split especially if you are intentionally doing it will be much less then it would be if you had to rack because you have to release the gun with one hand, move the gun to rack it, rack it, re-grip the gun, re-acquire the target and shoot your first shot. It is much easier and faster to just squeeze the trigger one extra time.

Not to mention absolutely no risk of a procedural penalty!

Good point, I hadn't thought that angle through, I was considering just the round count.

Maybe I'll stay in Standard :)
 
This has gone 8 pages....

If there is an opportunity to engage a target DA up close..then do so. If not, then AIM at your scary distant target and press the trigger. If you don't hit it than I guess you should shoot (coming from a DA/SA shooter)...your next shot SA. Rack this,.rack that..attempt this and that....just do some practice for god sakes.
 
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This idea has no merit.
If you can't shoot D/A you do not have the skill set to win anything anyway.
Buy ammo and practice.
But as far as the rules go, and how I would interpret them;
"click" then rack= enjoy your COF.
Rack then "click" you are getting more ink on your score card.
If the shooter wants to argue it, thats what CRO's, RM's and arbitration commitee's are for IMO.
 
also, after racking you would have to decock so the first attempted shot with a chambered round is DA.......

for those who cannot access the GV site, for clarification purposes Vince went to the Executive Council to get a re-word and eliminate the word "attempt", conclusion was it stands as is with a clarification of the ruling:

1st attempted shot DA with a chambered round= no procedural
1st attempted shot DA without a chambered round= one procedural (if the next shot with a chambered round is taken SA)

so if anyone forgets to chamber a round in Production div and attempts the first shot DA, to NOT receive one procedural they must chamber a round, decock, and attempt that shot with a chambered round in DA

This would be awkward with handguns not equipped with a decocker, must not be moving (10.5.10).

Snapshot
 
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