VZ-58 Carbine Operators Course

beltfed said:
Part of the problem with attracting people to come out and partake in courses is the sense of being overwhelmed with some, and not wanting to run advanced drills with noobs with others.
We have a hard enough time attracting people to come out and attend Service Rifle and Carbine matches which are completely static, with very little fees.
Asking for guys to spend more money on a course than they would in a year or two's worth of ammo, plus burning up half a year's with of ammo in one weekend is a big ask.
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Hey mate, I'm not sure I'm understanding your point.

Are you saying that investing in training isn't a worthwhile pursuit? :confused:

I know how hard it is to get people to pay for or attend training, however, if they you do attend any course (not just ours) I can pretty much guanratee that they will learn skills to enhance both their live and dry fire training and that those skills assist in optimizing limited training resources (money and ammo) and time! Also, a good instructor shold be operating on crawl, walk, run principles and bring up the noods at the same rate as the higher speed guys.

Trust me, I pay for ammo and gas.. oh, and courses too! I know it's expensive but worth it!:)
 
beltfed said:
Part of the problem with attracting people to come out and partake in courses is the sense of being overwhelmed with some, and not wanting to run advanced drills with noobs with others.
We have a hard enough time attracting people to come out and attend Service Rifle and Carbine matches which are completely static, with very little fees.
Asking for guys to spend more money on a course than they would in a year or two's worth of ammo, plus burning up half a year's with of ammo in one weekend is a big ask.
Click to expand...

$250 for the course and $150 for ammo is nothing... about equal to my yearly rimfire budget. ($400 buying you about 13 bricks of decent quality rimfire ammo)

Having done Service Conditions and Service CQB with the ORA for the last 2 years, I can definitely see the utility in these sorts of courses... I even went to the point of trading my Sub 2000 for a CZ 858 so I could (hopefully) get out to this course. It is somewhat dependant on my schedule... but it sounds like they will be teaching all sorts of great skills for people using the VZ series of rifles.

IMO training, especially from professionals, is well worth the money. Yah, it costs a fair bit... but they're a lot of fun and you gain a great skill set that will (hopefully) significantly improve your shooting ability.
 
beltfed said:
Part of the problem with attracting people to come out and partake in courses is the sense of being overwhelmed with some, and not wanting to run advanced drills with noobs with others.
We have a hard enough time attracting people to come out and attend Service Rifle and Carbine matches which are completely static, with very little fees.
Asking for guys to spend more money on a course than they would in a year or two's worth of ammo, plus burning up half a year's with of ammo in one weekend is a big ask.
Click to expand...

There is no getting around it, at some point you have to get off your ass, out of your comfort zone and participate. Yes you'll feel like a dolt first time out (that's true for just about anything). Any instructor worth his salt can tell where everyone's at and give needed attention without making folk feel foolish (trust me Earls deals out the jabs regardless of your level, it's a very even playing field :)). Also, for the most part guys taking courses, even if more advanced guys, realize where they've come from themselves and understand. If they're in a beginner/intermediate course it's to brush up on the basics anyway. No worries Earl won't have you storming the beach if he doesn't think everyone is up to it.

So far as spending more money on a course than ammo, well it's like everything else, you get what you pay for. A professional instructor has put in the time and money getting training and experience himself, you can't expect that for free. Good instruction will save you wasted ammo in the long run. How many guys blow a case of ammo just assing around for s**ts and giggles, or learning something the hard way because they didn't get any instruction. It's like my first day snowboarding, most painful day of my life, all because I turned down instruction, next time out had a buddy give me some pointers and before I knew it I was up and going, no different with shooting!

Best advice ever, "Never take any advice (or training for that matter) you didn't pay for!" That just cost you a penny! :)
 
Absolutely training is well worth it. In fact, I'd put training down as the most important component.
What I'm saying is that there are few individuals out there that see the benefit (IMHO).
If leagues and clubs that spend time and energy on putting on matches for cheap are having difficulty in attracting competitors (even casual competitions such as IDPA and SR), then the audience that would spend considerably more on courses is much smaller.
I'd make a guess that most who own one of the VZ models wouldn't fire the equivilent of a crate within 2 years time, and might hit the range or field once in a couple or three months time.

I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, just noting what I've seen in the last several years organizing and running Service Rifle with the CSRA, IDPA with the ATHL and My limited involvement with IPSC Alberta (limited time with a young family after all).
 
I think it's all about getting a critical mass going in shooting sports in Canada. Shooting sports here have been operating under the radar for the most part. There's not much exposure and it's not as accessible or convienient as most would prefer.

Today's generation has been brought up on Xbox/Playstation, if it involves anything more than pluggin in and playing it's too much hassle. It's all about getting the latest do-dad to impress friends, piss-ups in the basement, and trying to be cool. Let's face it there's nothing cooler than showing friends a decked out AR with lights and lasers, uber high speed, but can you actually do the things you think you can with it? How many of todays generation even partake in the outdoors, you know out of touch of texting and facebook? How many are willing to spend an WHOLE day outside, interacting with real people from different generations, taking their advice and instruction and actually learning something that requires skill and effort. Nah, much easier to play soldier on Xbox racking up high score, spending money on 'stuff', and trying to be cool, learning stuff takes too much time and effort, and you have to leave the damn basement!

F*ck I'm starting to sound like an old fart, the change, it's starting to happen isn't it? :eek:
 
beltfed said:
Absolutely training is well worth it. In fact, I'd put training down as the most important component.
What I'm saying is that there are few individuals out there that see the benefit (IMHO).
If leagues and clubs that spend time and energy on putting on matches for cheap are having difficulty in attracting competitors (even casual competitions such as IDPA and SR), then the audience that would spend considerably more on courses is much smaller.
I'd make a guess that most who own one of the VZ models wouldn't fire the equivilent of a crate within 2 years time, and might hit the range or field once in a couple or three months time.

I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, just noting what I've seen in the last several years organizing and running Service Rifle with the CSRA, IDPA with the ATHL and My limited involvement with IPSC Alberta (limited time with a young family after all).
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You can't rain on my parade as what you're seeing is not happening here.;)

We hosted 6 days of classes here in 2010 and 6 more starting Thursday. The participation has been outstanding. Class sizes have been large and the tuition is not cheap.

I've taken and hosted classes in the Peace Country every year since 2006 and all have been well attended.
 
beltfed said:
Absolutely training is well worth it. In fact, I'd put training down as the most important component.
What I'm saying is that there are few individuals out there that see the benefit (IMHO).
If leagues and clubs that spend time and energy on putting on matches for cheap are having difficulty in attracting competitors (even casual competitions such as IDPA and SR), then the audience that would spend considerably more on courses is much smaller.
I'd make a guess that most who own one of the VZ models wouldn't fire the equivilent of a crate within 2 years time, and might hit the range or field once in a couple or three months time.

I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade, just noting what I've seen in the last several years organizing and running Service Rifle with the CSRA, IDPA with the ATHL and My limited involvement with IPSC Alberta (limited time with a young family after all).
Click to expand...
think you must be shooting with the wrong bunch of people .
most people i know that own firearms shoot them alot, other then the hunters.
just ask someone like ryan and his wife how much ammo he sells a year, i can tell you its millions or rounds of ammo, i know i have hellped move it.
And thats just one store!!
Training and ammo is the single best investment you can make as a shooter, weather its target shooting, hunting ,comp.
bbb
 
badboybeeson said:
think you must be shooting with the wrong bunch of people .
most people i know that own firearms shoot them alot, other then the hunters.
just ask someone like ryan and his wife how much ammo he sells a year, i can tell you its millions or rounds of ammo, i know i have hellped move it.
And thats just one store!!
Training and ammo is the single best investment you can make as a shooter, weather its target shooting, hunting ,comp.
bbb
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Hey, I know a hunter that was in the shotgun course put on by Earl Green today that likes to shoot a lot. :D Great course today! A great time was had by all.

Regards,

Chizzy
 
Stevo said:
You can't rain on my parade as what you're seeing is not happening here.;)

We hosted 6 days of classes here in 2010 and 6 more starting Thursday. The participation has been outstanding. Class sizes have been large and the tuition is not cheap.

I've taken and hosted classes in the Peace Country every year since 2006 and all have been well attended.
Click to expand...

I know, you are drawing guys from Calgary (guys I shoot with) and likely farther.
 
badboybeeson said:
think you must be shooting with the wrong bunch of people .
most people i know that own firearms shoot them alot, other then the hunters.
just ask someone like ryan and his wife how much ammo he sells a year, i can tell you its millions or rounds of ammo, i know i have hellped move it.
And thats just one store!!
Training and ammo is the single best investment you can make as a shooter, weather its target shooting, hunting ,comp.
bbb
Click to expand...

I think you guys are misunderstanding my posts.
You are preaching to the choir when it comes to sending rounds down range.
I'm only offering up suggestions as to the rationale of why people are not coming out to shoot and attend courses - I'm not defending it.
 
beltfed said:
I think you guys are misunderstanding my posts.
You are preaching to the choir when it comes to sending rounds down range.
I'm only offering up suggestions as to the rationale of why people are not coming out to shoot and attend courses - I'm not defending it.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I misunderstood then.

:cheers:
 
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