Want To Enter The World of BP Rifles.....

dak47

dak47

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Summerwood/Bridge City TX & Okanagan BC
As I come up on 50, I have all the modern hunting arms I will ever need. I always turned up my nose at BP when I was younger because it got me no early or late season advantage in BC. Took up archery for the 9 day head start and never looked back.
Now it doesn't matter to me anymore, I'd like to take it up for the hell of it ;) This brings me to a couple questions,

* Besides what I see in Cabelas, Google doesn't bring a whole lot of results in Canada? Or am I google impaired? I see Marstar deals with Pedersoli, the Jaeger Hunter model on Pedersoli's site is my kind of look!

* Is there better choice than the Pedersoli that isn't outrageous expensive or is there a place in BC that I can deal with? I was thinking percussion the best way to start for a newbie? The 54 cal seems like a nice middle of the road cal?

Sorry for all the newb questions, thought I could cut some time from the learning curve with the experience in this group!

Cheers,
D.K.

View attachment 20204
 
You Re in for a heckuva ride!
There are quite a few custom builders around, but for the money Pedersoli guns are hard to beat and they have the Workd Championship medals to prove it!
they are very correct in their period styles exception of TCas well.
Hiwever, there are lots of good guns about Browning built done as did TC,Lyman,etc but most were actually rebranded Italian makers with the exception of TC .
my suggestion is to wait until spring when the rendezvous start and go to some , check out the guns and ask a pile if questions and possibly shoot some before deciding what you want!:>)
Cat
 
Canada is a Black Powder VOID. We have very few dealers and places to shop for a real PC or Flinter. The Pedersoli's are as good as a factory gun gets. TC, Lyman are good too, but TC is no longer making their Black Powder rifles. A few shops have the Traditions brands.
There are good deals to be found in the classifieds here, but shop wisely and insist on photos of the bore , and of the barrel stamping. I recently bought a CVA gun that when it arrived wasn't a CVA at all and it was in poor shape to boot.
 
Yes, you can pick up some pretty nice Thompson Centers for not a bad price. As mentioned, some of the other brands are made in Italy by Invest Arms and renamed with whatever company doing the ordering. You can find some darn nice Invest Arms at a lower price than say a Lyman branded gun. Pretty much the same gun but cheaper. I bought a muzzleloader for my dad and myself back in 1978. They were Safari Arms made by Invest Arms. Nice quality rifles with beautiful wood on them. Still have mine.
Personally I would be careful of the quality of some Spanish made rifles (I believe CVA or Traditions) . You hear lots of stories but maybe they are that, just stories.
Now if you are looking for a higher grade rifle, then probably what I said above doesn't apply.
 
Cabela's T/C Impact .50, is the way to go for beginners, IMO.
It's inexpensive and easy to clean. Blackhorn 209 powder with CCI 209M primers.
 
The reality is, you are 40 years too late. Interest in muzzleloading guns peaked in the 70's, it's been declining ever since. Now in-line muzzleloaders are somewhat popular, but that's about it.
It was mentioned that Pedersoli is a good factory gun, true that, but none of the imported replicas have the quality control standards we are used to with modern firearms.
There is a reason serious Muzzleloaders often build or buy a custom gun, to get a good one.
 
If you have the cash, Pedersoli is hard to beat! As was mentioned above, quality is excellent, and they shoot very well. I have a Gibbs rifle. Something interesting that I noticed when I went to Pedersoli's site, is that they are recommending a round ball for the Jager. I see that the rifle is .54 cal, with 1/24" twist. Typically, a twist that fast is better suited to shooting conical bullets. A round ball rifle, in my experience, is more likely to have a much slower twist, 1/68 or thereabouts. Some, such as TC Renegade, have a 1/48" , which is sort of a compromise. I looked some other rifles on Pedersoli's site, and lots of their rifles are like that. One exception, is the Rocky Mountain Hawken. It is .54 cal, with1/65 twist. It would, I'm guessing, shoot a patched round ball much better than the faster twist. I really like the look of it!!
Why should you care about this, you ask? My experience has been that a patched round ball rifle is much easier to get started on than one that shoots long conical bullets. It is much easier to get a good ball-to-bore fit with PRB. Get a .530 or .535 round ball mold, and experiment with different thicknesses of patch material, and Bob is your uncle. My Gibbs rifle, OTOH, is a conical bullet shooter. Bullet-to-bore fit needs to be almost perfect, and the bore needs to be swabbed after every shot in order to get the next bullet down without having to beat on it, which deforms the bullet. Others may disagree...
I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about this. Perhaps PRB's shoot fine out of 1/24" twist barrels, I have never tried it, but it is not the norm. Also, some other opinions on PRB vs conical bullet for beginners would be useful. I love my Gibbs, but it will drive you to drink sometimes. My old Lyman Great Plains Rifle is so much simpler to load... The down side to PRB, of course, is that max range is about 100 yards. As always, YMMV.
Glen
Oh, almost forgot, welcome to the Black Powder world!
 
I have never seen a maxi, mini, or sabotted bullet shoot as well as a properly matched load in a PRB rifle with a slow twist when it comes to shooting offhand with open sights .
As far as a hunting load goes , you can only push a round ball do fast , and a slow twist helps to keep the ball stabilized when it is in the upper end of the velocity spectrum .
I push my hunting loads really hard, that is why I gave always advocated a slower twist when I was building custom muzzle loaders.
The guns and enthusiasts are still out there , just not in the line light like they used to be. :>)
Cat
 
My 2 pennies are on Pedersoli.

We have a lot of our shooters here with them and they are getting great results.

Parts are somewhat over the counter also, not custom made.

Myself, I actually don't own one right now, but I have in the past.

I like both round ball and slug rifles.

Most of my mine are all custom built, but my main interests are on British Sniders, Martini Henry, U.S. Civil War arms and just about anything else you can throw in the mix.

I still have a .54 T/C Hawken with target sights added.

It shoots pretty dam good for a 1X48 twist with round ball.

I never never tried anything else in it.

Burlington Rifle & Revolver Club (Blackpowder Section) is the home of several World Class Gold Medal Winners.

Black powder firearms & shooting is like Cigars and Whiskey, we all have our likes and dislikes.
 
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Some excellent advice has been offered. Unless you are set on hunting game larger than a whitetail or mulie, I would strongly recommend going with a 50 cal. It is by far the most popular cal you will find on the range and at rendezvous. Nearly all the folks I shoot with shoot PRB and, as stated, a twist of about 1 in 66 or slower is best for PRB. A 50 cal consumes less lead and powder than a 54 and has less kick, so you will be less likely to develop a flinch. If you are a traditionalist, you might want to consider a flinter. Mine are every bit as reliable as a percussion and (in my opinion) a whole lot more fun to shoot. In my opinion, none of the factory jobs, other than some military repros, are true to the originals they purport to represent. Good custom jobs occasionally come up on the EE. One by Danny Caywood showed up not long ago.
 
There is a very few custom builders of muzzle loaders (traditional, not the inline things that shoot pistol bullets) and even less "commercial" offerings in Canada.

As has been stated, in the factory built stuff, Pedersoli is probably at the top of the pile in terms of quality, fit and finish and they are available from a few on-line sources.

Lyman has a couple of offerings still on the market. They generally sell at half the price of a Pedersoli. Lyman's are built by Investarm's (Italy) which also used to make the Cabela branded stuff. Pedersoli has taken over some, or maybe all of the "Cabela's" stuff now - so depends on the model and whether it's new or older stock.

A Cabela's rifle built by Pedersoli is not of the same fit/finish as the Pedersoli line and is reflected in the lower price.

Traditions still makes a couple of "side hammer" black powder guns but they are becoming increasingly difficult to find in Canada. They are mostly Spanish produced parts, but the quality is safe - thousands have been shot just fine.

Generalizing, you will drop maybe 1000 bucks on a Pedersoli, 500'ish on a Lyman and 350-400 for a Traditions.

If you are looking for "custom" or "semi-custom" the price tag will go between a big bit and a gigantic bit.

There is a couple of US semi-custom builders who will ship to Canada without issue. Prices start at about $1500 and go up from there.

If you want a custom build you can generally think about dropping 3K for a basic build and upwards of a 3 year wait.

So it really depends what you want.

Today there are two general offerings, often broken down into "round ball twist" or slow twist rifling and fast twist often referred to as a "hunter barrel" - now you may get a fast twist to shoot round ball "ok" and vice versa, but for best results you should match the barrel to what you intend to shoot.

If you are interested in a custom job, or a kit assembled by a builder (kits are available for many historic long rifles - but they are not a "put part A into slot B kinda kit" - mostly a box of parts a barrel and a chunk of wood), I know of a truly talented black powder builder in Prince George and could pass you some contact information.

If you decide on a used rifle it would be in your best interest to find someone familiar with black powder to inspect the gun for you. Many used ones were not properly cleaned and the barrels are junk. The cost of re-barreling a "factory" black powder rifle often exceeds the total replacement cost of the rifle because many times you need a custom barrel built for it - nobody has a Thompson Center OEM Hawken barrel in stock anymore.

Supplies are sometimes downright impossible to find if you stray from the standard caliber offerings (or you have to pay outrageous shipping to get round balls, conicals etc).

Because of that you are best to stick with the common caliber "50 or 54" unless you have a local source for black powder supplies. Amongst my black powder rifles I have a rather rare 38 caliber - that one usually requires a drive to the US to obtain roundballs, since I don't cast my own.
 
Because it hasn't been mentioned - I've been incredibly impressed by the Browning Mountain Rifle. Fit and finish is excellent - heavy but amazing shooting guns with single set trigger - can shoot regular pull or push forward for ultra light trigger... truly wonderful guns. They come in .50 and .54. They're discontinued so have to wait for them to show up on the EE - $500-$700 is the norm for them, almost always in excellent condition.

All in all you won't regret getting into BP - tons of fun to shoot. For a first gun pedersoli does seem to have the general edge, but you've got a lot of options.
 
I started with the T/C hawken back in the 70's and still have and shoot it but have found a lot of fun and enjoyment with original guns, I have a early Pedersoli double 58 cal that I use for hunting and I agree they are a decent gun for the money Shooter Choice in Kitchener usally has stock of some of there guns.
 
H Wally said:
Because it hasn't been mentioned - I've been incredibly impressed by the Browning Mountain Rifle. Fit and finish is excellent - heavy but amazing shooting guns with single set trigger - can shoot regular pull or push forward for ultra light trigger... truly wonderful guns. They come in .50 and .54. They're discontinued so have to wait for them to show up on the EE - $500-$700 is the norm for them, almost always in excellent condition.

All in all you won't regret getting into BP - tons of fun to shoot. For a first gun pedersoli does seem to have the general edge, but you've got a lot of options.
Click to expand...



Timing is perfect for this! Please forgive the ugly black spot at 12 o'clock. This was my poor effort to reduce glare.
The other three bullet holes are from my Browning Mountain Rifle in 50 PRB from a bench at 100 yards using the factory buckhorn sights.
100 gr FFFG under a Hornday .495 ball.
Minute of deer heart/lungs.
 
You have lots of options in BC. For a starter I would strongly recommend a percussion 54 cal. half-stock (Plains or Hawken style) as they are durable,easy to maintain and usually less costly than a full-stock longrifle. There are good deals on the EE Forum if you just watch and maybe get some advice from experienced friends. Some of the better used guns would be the Browning Mountain Rifle and Lyman Great Plains Rifle but certainly the Pedersolis and several others are worth considering. These are all for PRB which really is the way to go and cheap to shoot, especially if you cast your own balls. Guns intended for PRB's will have a twist rate somewhere between 1:55 and 1:70 or so.
As for sources of new and used custom built rifles, there are several builders in BC and Alberta, and a dealer in Revelstoke dedicated solely to BP shooting so you have several options available in BC. There also is a dealer in Senlac, SK.
If you can find a weekend BP shoot near home you can learn a lot in a day of watching and asking questions.
 
I have a Browning mountain rifle as well in 54 caliber. As mentioned, they are pretty nice rifles. You see more 50 caliber for sale than 54. I believe there is a 50 caliber on the EE right now. I think it's a bit high though for condition.
 
D.K.,I 'll say I you have come to the right place.I am relatively new to black powder myself and the group here have been really helpful.I opted for a Pedersoli .54 cal hawken from Marstar and am extremely pleased.The maple dings really easy but I knew I would be bruising whatever I had while hunting.I am glad I went with the patched round ball and percussion to start with and now am looking into flintlocks.The great plains rifle from Lyman would have been my next choice as you have an option to buy a 1:32 twist if you decide you want to shoot conicals.The round ball did just fine on my whitetail this year.Joing a club with a black powder group is another way to learn a lot fast.Don't be shy, ask and most guys will be more than willing to share their good and bad experiences.A friend of mine swayed me to treat myself to the "bling" of the Pedersoli being 62 and my outlook on things have changed like yourself.One thing that made me feel good about my choice was while at the range I was having a trigger issue.I asked one of the "seasoned" shooters if they could offer some advice.He knew right away that it was probably just some grit in the wrong place.He instructed me to remove the lock and we'll look.It was just as he said .He also said how impressed he was with the inner workings and finish of the lock parts and made a point of saying so to some of the other shooters .It is mind boggling how this sport can absorb you and the roads it can take you down.For myself much more than centerfire has,and I did shoot a fair bit in my younger years ,handloading for hunting etc. I think you'll enjoy the ride !
 
Thanks to you All!!!
That is a ton of good information in your posts! The dealer in Revy will have to be investigated along with the Rocky Mountain Hawkens.... This looks like it could be a good bit of fun, nice to have something to research that I'm out of my element with ;)
Got my work cut out for me, thought for sure maxi's and sabots was the way I was leaning but for getting going and learning, I will give PRB some serious thought!

Thanks Again,
D.K.
 
galamb said:
Supplies are sometimes downright impossible to find if you stray from the standard caliber offerings (or you have to pay outrageous shipping to get round balls, conicals etc).

Because of that you are best to stick with the common caliber "50 or 54" unless you have a local source for black powder supplies. Amongst mn they black powder rifles I have a rather rare 38 caliber - that one usually requires a drive to the US to obtain roundballs, since I don't cast my own.
Click to expand...

Supplies are an issue, for sure, at least where I live. You can limit that, at least in part, by casting your own balls. PRB rifles do best with pure lead, which is often available from plumbers, and other building trades. Patches are available as bulk fabric at local sewing stores. The real problem, though, is powder. In my opinion, real BP is the only option. The substitutes are more readily available, but less satisfactory in a side-lock rifle. The substitutes work ok in inline rifles (ugh) because of the inline action and shotgun primer ignition. A sidelock, which you are interested in, is tougher to get lit up. The spark has to go through the nipple, then make a 90 degree turn into the flash channel, and travel a half inch more to get to the powder. They say 777 is the next easiest to ignite, but who cares, as long as real BP is available? I stocked up at the Brandon gun show, a month ago. The folks from Rayner Shine (Western Canada Swiss powder distributer) were there, so I bought 10# of Swiss 1-1/2f. Percussion caps seem to be getting rare as well. I guess what I am saying is when you see BP supplies for sale, stock up! Balls and patches, you can find locally, and make your own, powder and caps, not so much.
Oh, one more thing... check out http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/ This guy gives a real good introduction to ML shooting. He sells a book (actually more of a pamphlet that he prints himself) for $20, more or less, but offers much of what is in the book on his web site. I have been ML shooting for 30 years, and I really got a lot out of it. Just as a side note, it is soooo much easier to learn this stuff than in was 30 years ago. The internet, and forums like this make it so easy to become very knowledgeable very quickly, and for free! We had to rely on ourselves, mostly, trial and error.
 
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