Wanting to add a 20ga SXS.......

PR has a 20ga AyA Matador right now - DT, pistol grip 27" M/IM for a very reasonable price. The Matador is a very well reputed gun for durability, but I've not seen one in person to assess the build quality/cosmetics. Certainly, it should pale in comparison to the higher end AyA's.
Yes, I saw that and have been giving it some thought. It is listed as "AYA, safari arms" and I do not now what that means. I searched for info on the "Safari arms" monikor and found nothing to indicate what exactly that means. I know it is just a picture but the colour of the receiver does not look right to me. Too bright and more akin to aluminum than steel in colour. Based on the price there HA to be something lesser about it than the typical AYA. Like I mentioned earlier, I am not as concerned about price as I am about value.

Last thing I'll say is that screw-in chokes have no place in a classic DT SxS

I could not agree more. It is a conundrum. as my total agreement of the above statement flys in the face of my wanting versatility.

and chokes in general are way overthought.

That is certainly the case with me.

For upland and "casual" clay shooting, anything from SK/SK to M/M or a combination in between is fine. If you can find some, or load some, spreaders can help out a tight choked gun in thick grouse/woodcock cover.
Most of my shotguns are muzzleloader and as such are cylinder bored. My one and only smokeless shotgun is full and full and, because I am not much of a "snap" shooter, works well on clays as I am a slow methodical shooter and they are usually out there a ways before I pull the trigger. I believe this too be a consequence of decades of being a rifle shooter and relatively new to shotgunning.

Now that I've poked a stick into the hornets nest of chokes... I'll see myself to the door. LOL
Nothing wrong with "poking a stick into a hornets nest" if you believe what you are saying and can back it up. This is how guys like me can learn and, from what I can see, your thoughts on chokes are well worth sharing.
 
To address your basic points…..available high quality side by sides are far more common in Uk than USA and very scarce in Canada But….
20 gauge doubles are very scarce in UK, less than 1 in 100. Americans love ‘em and snap them up, probably more of these English 20’s in US now. Prices very high.
English 20’s will usually have fixed chokes and double triggers, splinter forends, mostly straight stocks (70-80%). The higher end ones will usually have ejectors.
Most English 20’s were made with short stocks for ladies or teens. Many have well done stock extensions or have been restocked.
The English 20’s are old. Many are very old. Webley & Scott’s and their proprietary guns for others such as H&H or Churchill were made into the early 1980’s and
that’s about the newest you’ll find. You won’t find choke tubes. Most English 20’s were made before WW2, 80,90,100 years old. Many were made before WW1
and there are even some good looking guns from the 1880’s, 1890’s. OLD. Bear this in mind if you’re considering 3000 - 5000 rounds of range use per year, when
these guns break, as all mechanical things eventually do, parts must be hand made and fitted by a skilled gunsmith, time consuming and very expensive. The
styling changes over the last 140 years were subtle and it takes knowledge and experience to tell the difference. Very few could tell the difference in age between
a 1920 gun and a 1980 gun by a few photos alone. All of these can be great guns but almost all will have 2 1/2” chambers which is not insurmountable for a
field gun but could become an issue for high usage.
Vintage American 20’s like Parkers, Fox’s, LC Smith’s, LeFevres are also scarce, generally of low to medium quality and the Americans luv ‘em. And they drive the prices out of sight. Pick up a Parker VHE and swing it around, then do the same with a Webley & Scott, the difference is like night and day. If you’re a shooter and looking for a lively responsive 20 you’ll quickly make your choice. Higher grade American guns are more attractive but handle the same, are astronomically expensive as a 20 and pretty well non existent in Canada, the few that were here have been sold south into slavery. Modern American doubles are mostly low grade like the Savage/Fox BSE, medium grade like the Browning BSS’s and Ithaca/SKB’s where you can find choke tubes and single triggers but also frequently heavy weight and large clubby stocks and forends like a 2x4 and well finished, well proportioned high end guns like the Winchester M21, RBL, Parker Reproduction.
Frequently overlooked are European guns and the Spanish, Italian and German makers have put many fine 20 gauge side by sides into our hands since WW2. The higher grade Spanish doubles by the best makers are fine guns and under valued, under priced. The problem here is that they also produced a large number of inferior quality guns, these are everywhere and few can tell the quality guns from the rest. German guns are well built, robust, if the styling features suits you there might be a match here. Lots of Italian guns on the market, some 20’s too. They are usually well made attractive fine handling guns, many with the features you’re looking for. Prices for unfamiliar makers are very reasonable but a few of the very best are hand made and the prices will make your eyes water. Familiar brand names like Beretta, Franchi and the lesser known Bernardelli produced many medium and higher grade 20’s that are reasonably priced today and Beretta, Rizzini, FAIR, Fausti and others offer a great choice of styles, grades ( and prices ) in new guns.
If you can really define what you want and fit this within your realistic budget the guns are out there, some are scarcer or more expensive than others. Between gun shows, range visits, friend’s collections, appraising and my own habits I probably examine and handle a hundred or more different side by sides per year for years. I find a Very Good to Excellent English 20 SxS maybe once every 5 years, one needing care and attention maybe once a year. Be realistic, if this is your goal be prepared to wait years, pounce quick and pay top dollar. Look to European guns to scratch the itch while you’re searching. FWIW, I currently know of one mid 1980’s English 20 and one Beretta 20 of the same vintage with most or all of your preferred characteristics for sale commercially in Canada. PM me if you want more info.
J.
 
If you think a hugulu or a cz will stand up to shooting 2000’s of rounds of sporting clays and other games you will be disappointed they are not built for 3000-5000 rounds a year .
If you plan on a few hundred rounds a year they may be ok
Other wise save up $4000-7000$ and buy a sxs of investment grade quality it will pay off in the end

I have a CZ classic hammer gun in 12 gauge, I have shot about 10,000 through it so far and its still tight with no signs of loosening, its my favorite sporting clays gun, but target loads are obviously on the light side.
 
To address your basic points…..available high quality side by sides are far more common in Uk than USA and very scarce in Canada But….
20 gauge doubles are very scarce in UK, less than 1 in 100. Americans love ‘em and snap them up, probably more of these English 20’s in US now. Prices very high.
English 20’s will usually have fixed chokes and double triggers, splinter forends, mostly straight stocks (70-80%). The higher end ones will usually have ejectors.
Most English 20’s were made with short stocks for ladies or teens. Many have well done stock extensions or have been restocked.
The English 20’s are old. Many are very old. Webley & Scott’s and their proprietary guns for others such as H&H or Churchill were made into the early 1980’s and
that’s about the newest you’ll find. You won’t find choke tubes. Most English 20’s were made before WW2, 80,90,100 years old. Many were made before WW1
and there are even some good looking guns from the 1880’s, 1890’s. OLD. Bear this in mind if you’re considering 3000 - 5000 rounds of range use per year, when
these guns break, as all mechanical things eventually do, parts must be hand made and fitted by a skilled gunsmith, time consuming and very expensive. The
styling changes over the last 140 years were subtle and it takes knowledge and experience to tell the difference. Very few could tell the difference in age between
a 1920 gun and a 1980 gun by a few photos alone. All of these can be great guns but almost all will have 2 1/2” chambers which is not insurmountable for a
field gun but could become an issue for high usage.
Vintage American 20’s like Parkers, Fox’s, LC Smith’s, LeFevres are also scarce, generally of low to medium quality and the Americans luv ‘em. And they drive the prices out of sight. Pick up a Parker VHE and swing it around, then do the same with a Webley & Scott, the difference is like night and day. If you’re a shooter and looking for a lively responsive 20 you’ll quickly make your choice. Higher grade American guns are more attractive but handle the same, are astronomically expensive as a 20 and pretty well non existent in Canada, the few that were here have been sold south into slavery. Modern American doubles are mostly low grade like the Savage/Fox BSE, medium grade like the Browning BSS’s and Ithaca/SKB’s where you can find choke tubes and single triggers but also frequently heavy weight and large clubby stocks and forends like a 2x4 and well finished, well proportioned high end guns like the Winchester M21, RBL, Parker Reproduction.
Frequently overlooked are European guns and the Spanish, Italian and German makers have put many fine 20 gauge side by sides into our hands since WW2. The higher grade Spanish doubles by the best makers are fine guns and under valued, under priced. The problem here is that they also produced a large number of inferior quality guns, these are everywhere and few can tell the quality guns from the rest. German guns are well built, robust, if the styling features suits you there might be a match here. Lots of Italian guns on the market, some 20’s too. They are usually well made attractive fine handling guns, many with the features you’re looking for. Prices for unfamiliar makers are very reasonable but a few of the very best are hand made and the prices will make your eyes water. Familiar brand names like Beretta, Franchi and the lesser known Bernardelli produced many medium and higher grade 20’s that are reasonably priced today and Beretta, Rizzini, FAIR, Fausti and others offer a great choice of styles, grades ( and prices ) in new guns.
If you can really define what you want and fit this within your realistic budget the guns are out there, some are scarcer or more expensive than others. Between gun shows, range visits, friend’s collections, appraising and my own habits I probably examine and handle a hundred or more different side by sides per year for years. I find a Very Good to Excellent English 20 SxS maybe once every 5 years, one needing care and attention maybe once a year. Be realistic, if this is your goal be prepared to wait years, pounce quick and pay top dollar. Look to European guns to scratch the itch while you’re searching. FWIW, I currently know of one mid 1980’s English 20 and one Beretta 20 of the same vintage with most or all of your preferred characteristics for sale commercially in Canada. PM me if you want more info.
J.
Thanks. Message sent.
 
The BSS are very strong guns, and available with an English grip but not double triggers or chokes. Same for the Winchester M21 (assuming a $10K gun was even an option). The Huglu/CZ guns are good guns "for the money" and are available in the DT/English grip desired. I've owned a couple of CZ 20ga SxS's, and they were perfectly fine but lacking that "it" factor that only seems to come with much greater expense. I would not expect any Turkish gun to stand up to high volume shooting, over many years - if that is indeed the plan.

If you're buying new, I'd consider the FAIR Iside as reportedly a lot of gun for the money and available with chokes. Not sure about the DT/EG though.

On the used market, the opportunities/possibilities are near endless in 12ga but slim and by good fortune in 20ga. If you could stumble across an original (i.e. Miroku) Charles Daly 500 in 20ga... well, you'd better hope I don't see it first. And I have seen a few Beretta 471s (which are available with DT/EG) up here, but I don't recall ever seeing a 20ga version.

PR has a 20ga AyA Matador right now - DT, pistol grip 27" M/IM for a very reasonable price. The Matador is a very well reputed gun for durability, but I've not seen one in person to assess the build quality/cosmetics. Certainly, it should pale in comparison to the higher end AyA's.

Last thing I'll say is that screw-in chokes have no place in a classic DT SxS and chokes in general are way overthought. For upland and "casual" clay shooting, anything from SK/SK to M/M or a combination in between is fine. If you can find some, or load some, spreaders can help out a tight choked gun in thick grouse/woodcock cover.

Now that I've poked a stick into the hornets nest of chokes... I'll see myself to the door. LOL

Well so much of this conversation is about perception, preferences and as time goes by these thing change for us - usually meaning we acquire a new toy. Baron, you and I are currently on the same page, I believe we would enjoy each others company, in the field or in the gun room. I’ve handled many new small bore FAIR ISIDE models over the last ten years and I’ve come very close to buying one. For me they handle beautifully as a 20 or 28 gauge with 28” barrels and they have or can be ordered with most of the features that I find attractive, like smoothly struck barrels ( no monoblock joint seam), slim graceful stock and forend, quality wood, excellent balance and fit for me and double triggers and fixed chokes are a no cost option on order and higher grade wood at extra cost. I’m not a fan of their short trigger guard, checkering style or the shallow laser engraving but at the price it’s tough to beat.
The AYA Matador is a good solid gun, Matador was a basic gun, Safari Arms was the importer. I too had one of those Charles Daly 500 in 20 ga, shot it very well but a pretty little John Wilkes 20 came along and I changed horses. Definitely worth looking for as are the similar vintage Beretta 426 models and don’t sell the Ithaca/SKB models short, fine guns in their price class.
 
I have several SXS not in Ashcrofts range but decided that I wanted a utility sxs to replace my 828 Benelli o/u that the forearm split on .I went and looked at the CZ bobwhite project upland was pretty impressed so when they went on sale bought one.Got it home started cleaning it up and found there was a problem with the bluing on the left barrel ,looked like it was mottled and stained so no good .Took it back they offered full refund but I wanted the gun so am in a holding pattern as we speak waiting to see if they get another.This was a 12 but they did have a couple 20 as well. Not in my Jeffrey's class but it was not a bad gun and the triggers which seem to be the kryptonite on these were good .
 
I would echo Ashcroft's comments. And add this. The price differential between some vintage SxS, same condition in 12 gauge or 20 gauge can be a bit staggering. Enough that it's worth considering a very lightweight English 12 rather than search endlessly for overpriced English 20s. I have a couple 12 gauge down around 6 1/4 pounds. A friend has a couple 12 gauge continental guns (German) both under 5 3/4 pounds. My vintage Charles Daly SxS 12 gauge guns would have an asking price of about $10,000 usd if I wanted to put them up for sale. My Charles Daly 20 gauge, nearly identical to one of my 12 gauge Dalys, would have an asking price of around $25,000 usd. The premium on vintage small bores is insane. It'd true on vintage 28 gauge as well. I'd look very hard at much newer and very likely go Italian.
 
I have a 20 beretta that is taking up room
If that is a SXS I would have been interested. However, I found a CZ Bobwhite in Canada which was the initial focus on my search and it is on the way. My plan is to use the CZ for awhile and see what I like and don't like and what chokes serve my purpose best (has screw in chokes) then, perhaps seek out a higher end 20ga, like perhaps an AYA No1 or No2 sidelock and give the CZ to one of the grandkids. FWIW, I could not sleep the other night so was on the computer (helps to tire out my eyes) and was casually going through all the ads at the top of the forum main page and found that Reliable gun in Vancouver has 5 in stock. I let "Guido" know that I found the gun on their "Gunnutz" ad and he said "Thanks, good to know we are getting some value there".
 
If that is a SXS I would have been interested. However, I found a CZ Bobwhite in Canada which was the initial focus on my search and it is on the way. My plan is to use the CZ for awhile and see what I like and don't like and what chokes serve my purpose best (has screw in chokes) then, perhaps seek out a higher end 20ga, like perhaps an AYA No1 or No2 sidelock and give the CZ to one of the grandkids. FWIW, I could not sleep the other night so was on the computer (helps to tire out my eyes) and was casually going through all the ads at the top of the forum main page and found that Reliable gun in Vancouver has 5 in stock. I let "Guido" know that I found the gun on their "Gunnutz" ad and he said "Thanks, good to know we are getting some value there".

I will be interested to see what you think of the 20.Reliable (where I bought my CZ project upland 12) just e mailed to say that probably couple more weeks before they get another,but they have several 20g. will follow your thoughts
 
I will be interested to see what you think of the 20.Reliable (where I bought my CZ project upland 12) just e mailed to say that probably couple more weeks before they get another,but they have several 20g. will follow your thoughts
I will post a report. From all the research I have done on them, I expect to have to do some trigger work right out of the box which should be no big deal. I have not held a "Bobwhite" but did shoulder a ringneck. The actions are different in construction and from what I understand a bit different in dimension (G2 is supposed to be a bit slimmer than the previous model). The changes to the G2 is CNC machined action that is a bit slimmer, coil springs rather than leaf and floating fireing pins. It might be a few OZ lighter than the previous models, not sure, otherwise it should handle very much like the Ringneck that I played with. They had 5 or 6 like mine in stock when I ordered.
 
I recieved my CZ Bobwhite 20GA today. Sweet little unit. Points like a dream and feels very good (there goes THAT excuse). Even has a nice stick of lumber on it with curl throughout the buttstock which was not expected. Don't have any snap caps yet so have not tried the triggers
 
I had a Gen 1 Huglu (Mark deHaan imported to US) 20 ga, same as the CZ Bobwhite. Twin triggers, 28” barrels, choke tubes, English grip and splinter forend. Was a good shotgun that I shot well…but a bit heavy. Bet you like the gen 2 version!

Also have a .410 Bobwhite, and have owned a 28 ga Bobwhite. Both were very slender, especially the .410. All on their own frame size. No issues with any of the three I have or had owned, all Gen 1 shotguns.
 
My understanding is that the only difference between the first gen and the G2 is the G2 is slightly narrower, has coil springs and floating firing pins. I am quite impressed with how well it fits me. It is a bit heavy for a 20ga (noticeably heavier than my 20ga sxs flint) but light weight = higher felt recoil so gotta choose one’s poison I suppose. Looking forward to taking it out. -40 this morning so……….I will wait.
 
Posted a few pics in the show your sxs section above 12g 3" g2 bobwhite project upland,but am quite taken with this one. Comes with 5 chokes shoulders nicely the raised rib for me is a plus finish not bad not a 20 but really very pleased .And thanks to Reliable site sponsor who replaced the one I had originally with the bluing blemishes no problem,nice to see service still in this world of you bought it I don't care anymore.
FIGZzbEl.jpg
 
Beautiful day today (+5 sunny) so shot a couple rounds of skeet with the new CZ Bobwhite 20GA. Everything about it felt good. When I was shopping I had a few "Must haves" on my list which included, straight grip, double triggers, non-ejector and screw in chokes. In hindsight, the screw in chokes was not a good idea for me (Never had them before). The rest, much to the chagrin of the other shooters there are exactly what I wanted and seems to work and feel great. If I have one "complaint", and it is not really a "complaint" but something that I would like better if it was not so is that it is NOT effortless to open and close. It is stiff to open and close but it IS brand new and is NOT in the price point for self or assisted opening. Overall, based on 2 rounds of skeet, I am quite pleased.
 
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