Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight
- Thread starter dudley2112
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Kukri blade
Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland
My question is why said US base did not have heavier weapons, ie mortars, C6's GPMGs or 50 cals.
- Location
- Scarborough, ON
The HK416 is ###y and all, but it doesn't magically make an assault rifle into a GPMG.
Alright, I haven't pitched in on any threads in quite a while, but figured this was a good one.
First, ANY rifle you heat up white hot will fail. Western armies do not teach "shoot til the rifle melts", unless I missed something during my time in BMQ. Aimed fire is generally more successful than doing your best impression of Charlie Sheen in Hotshots 2... I know the mall ninjas will dispute this however, but at least I tried.
Secondly, this wasn't a "Special Forces" type outfit, where all they had to rely on were their individual rifles. I mean with 9 dead, 27 wounded, those number require at least a good sized platoon at minimum. So with that being said, where were the 6-8 c9's (M249) and the 3-4 c2's (m240)? And assuming this is a typical American mechanized infantry unit, where are their LAVs (or US equivalent)? And like another gent posted, where was their heavy support?
Something is weird with this, but I mean I guess if you have 60 guys against 200+, then maybe the outcome would be similar. Regardless, something is weird here, and it has nothing to do with "carbon piston recoil-drive operated weapons failure" or whatever is being slung here. And maybe they did have all of the above, but the article didn't feel it necessary to include it for whatever reason. Anyway, definitely a guy would need more details before one gets out the tar and feathers.
First, ANY rifle you heat up white hot will fail. Western armies do not teach "shoot til the rifle melts", unless I missed something during my time in BMQ. Aimed fire is generally more successful than doing your best impression of Charlie Sheen in Hotshots 2... I know the mall ninjas will dispute this however, but at least I tried.
Secondly, this wasn't a "Special Forces" type outfit, where all they had to rely on were their individual rifles. I mean with 9 dead, 27 wounded, those number require at least a good sized platoon at minimum. So with that being said, where were the 6-8 c9's (M249) and the 3-4 c2's (m240)? And assuming this is a typical American mechanized infantry unit, where are their LAVs (or US equivalent)? And like another gent posted, where was their heavy support?
Something is weird with this, but I mean I guess if you have 60 guys against 200+, then maybe the outcome would be similar. Regardless, something is weird here, and it has nothing to do with "carbon piston recoil-drive operated weapons failure" or whatever is being slung here. And maybe they did have all of the above, but the article didn't feel it necessary to include it for whatever reason. Anyway, definitely a guy would need more details before one gets out the tar and feathers.
I couldn't agree more! But getting one of the new rifles on the market would have helped in this situation, & from what I have read so far there are even bigger issues at hand here too. Example as mentioned before, where was the other support elements?
Also I would rather here this straight from the soldiers mouths on what exactly happened, because they were on the ground, and not some reporter that is just out for a story.
On a side not I have fired in access of over 10 mags 30 rounders in shorter periods of time on numerous occasions and have not had that problem, except on an older C7 years ago, and that was only once.
AR180B-2 - unrestricted.
This came up on a couple other forums i visit , real sad 
. Few of us came to the conclusion that the Czech's got it right with their VZ-58's.
Anyways, would be nice to have more lightweight belted automatics, greater suppression fire than firing ur AR's for several clips on and on. At least the beltfeds are meant to put down that many rounds non-stop.
But like it was said before, political BS is the issue ...
. Few of us came to the conclusion that the Czech's got it right with their VZ-58's. Anyways, would be nice to have more lightweight belted automatics, greater suppression fire than firing ur AR's for several clips on and on. At least the beltfeds are meant to put down that many rounds non-stop.
But like it was said before, political BS is the issue
...- Location
- Lower Mainland
I think it would be easy to attack from a mountain. C2's and C3's aren't going to help you when you are getting bombed, shot at, and charged from different sides. If you go and hide, you get rushed. If you stay out and fight, you get sniped or hit or peppered from rpgs, you are probably going to get hit so u have to be tough.
If you are sustaining a C2 chain gun, you will just gonna get sniped. Let alone your ranged out by guys with RPGS with backpacks full of grenades. that the beauty of 40 guys with rpgs, you can commence artillery fire and then hide in the cave or simply hide behind arock.
With 20 PiK's guys you can just hose em down all day long from the top of a mountain. if a american shoots at you just walk to the other side of the mountain, and then pop up at a differnt spot and lay waste and dont use tracers. there are snipers too. and then you can rush with ak74 and the knives with rpg. there isnt just one mountain there is a bunch or mountain so its easy to bait marines then you friend on the other side of the vally can snipe. if you get tired u just walk home and hope a helicopter doesnt get u.
If you are sustaining a C2 chain gun, you will just gonna get sniped. Let alone your ranged out by guys with RPGS with backpacks full of grenades. that the beauty of 40 guys with rpgs, you can commence artillery fire and then hide in the cave or simply hide behind arock.
With 20 PiK's guys you can just hose em down all day long from the top of a mountain. if a american shoots at you just walk to the other side of the mountain, and then pop up at a differnt spot and lay waste and dont use tracers. there are snipers too. and then you can rush with ak74 and the knives with rpg. there isnt just one mountain there is a bunch or mountain so its easy to bait marines then you friend on the other side of the vally can snipe. if you get tired u just walk home and hope a helicopter doesnt get u.
- Location
- St. John's and/or CBS Newfoundland
Well everyone know that our militarys should be using direcet energy weapons now, foolish gunpowder and lead is just so primative.
This story comes down to a few troops got stuck in a tight situation and they fought until pretty much any weapon would give out, and then some.
This story comes down to a few troops got stuck in a tight situation and they fought until pretty much any weapon would give out, and then some.
We're looking at a platoon (34 men at best) against roughly a company plus organization here. These guys were outnumbered six to one and pouring lead down-rage just to keep up. Blaming personal weapons here is asinine and is to be disregarded for reasons previously mentioned. The issue here very obviously lies higher than a soldier's M4 and I think there have been sufficient discussions on here from armchair generals about the advantages of the exalted AK. Whoever said they didn't understand why we switched from 7.62 to 5.56 should read the US Army's report of how infantry soldiers operate from experiences during the Korean War, that would clear up the issue and give you a well needed education.
- Location
- where the work is
OK some of you are RTFO. I’m getting tired of arm chair commando, and the sole called “experts” here.
Fighting is more about software, then hardware.
If you haven’t Killed people or signed up to go fight and you are just an arm chair (Range)commando and sitting in your mom’s basements STFU.
Yes I have been there, done that.
Enough said, OUT.
Fighting is more about software, then hardware.
If you haven’t Killed people or signed up to go fight and you are just an arm chair (Range)commando and sitting in your mom’s basements STFU.
Yes I have been there, done that.
Enough said, OUT.
- Location
- where the work is
well said rod
WTF is a C2 chain gun? You mean a C2 LMG? Also, grammar, please, if english isn't your first language than I understand.
As for the matter at hand, the topic has been brought up here and elsewhere time and again, and each time those who have experience employing all the various platforms available (AK, AR, Swiss, HK, etc) in all sorts of dangerous places have time and again let their choices be known, and it always seems to be the AR, specifically that it is a great weapon and there is no reason to move away from it. That might be a clue to those insisting it needs to be replaced. That's not to say there can't be improvements to both the system and the training of the individuals using it, it's just that those who know the various choices available, and have used them to shoot people, all seem to be saying the same thing. I'll go with them, since they seem to know what they're talking about, and generally back it up with personal experience and facts.
The article is blowing the matter out of proportion, but does illustrate important points. Support weapons, it doesn't say they weren't there, but I can't help but think that in a situation like that, a couple of RWS' in addition to the platoon's normal assortment of weaponry wouldn't be a bad idea, let you unleash hell on the enemy while staying safely tucked away. Where was arty/air support? Again, we don't have a detailed report on the battle, only a few bits taken out to support the author's assertion that issued weapons are sub par. Maybe they had plenty of support, we just didn't read about it in the article. Also, it points out that the M4s were jamming as they became white hot, and we know that the sergeant's weapon overheated within the first half hour after firing 12 mags. We don't know if he fired all 12 mags evenly over that half hour, and I doubt that's the case, and it seems thats when the problems were occuring. Yeah, no #### it'll stop running smoothly at that point. As for the M249, did the gunner adjust the gas regulator? Did he switch barrels? It doesn't say either way, and not doing those things would explain why it failed. And also, was it continuously jamming, or did it jam once or twice and he cleared it and carried on? Again, lack of detail.
The jamming issues could have been partially addressed with that wonderful little thing called water. Dump a bit on your weapon to help cool it, or as mentioned on another forum, lock the bolt back and let it cool out for a few seconds, while you're at it, dump some more lube into the action. Another point, were they well lubed? ARs run best with lots of lube.
As for the weapons being inspected by their commanders, what kind of inspection was it? Even in my limited experience some people with years in felt that it was necessary to strip the finish off, and have it dry, or only the slightest coat of oil, if you're overcleaning and stripping off finish and leaving little lubrication I imagine that would be a contributing factor to weapons malfunctions.
All in all theres not enough detail in the article to make a really educated decision, it seems to be geared more towards stirring up controversy, and as I mentioned before, the people who knows these weapons in and out, and have used them, all agree that its a good gun and it gets the job done. All those naysayers might want to listen in to them.
Battle of Wanat - Inside the Ambush
Wanat is about the failure to implement and resource a sustained COIN effort. The merit of the M4 as a combat weapon is a sideshow.
CBS
Battle of Wanat - Inside the Ambush
AFGHANISTAN, Oct. 5, 2009
After nearly 15 months of relentless combat in Afghanistan, the soldiers of 2nd Platoon Charlie Company are filling their last sand bags. They shot video of themselves just 12 days before they were supposed to go home.
The outpost they are building is at a village called Wanat - deep in a remote and isolated Afghan valley surrounded by the mountain passes insurgents use to infiltrate from sanctuaries in Pakistan, as CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports.
Just four days later it would come dangerously close to being overrun by an estimated 200 Taliban fighters.
Apache helicopter pilots recorded video on gun camera tapes obtained by CBS News -- a furious fire fight, buildings in flames, and the only officer still alive on the ground calling for help.
"Be advised, we're in a bad situation . . . Need you to come in hot immediately," said the soldier on the ground.
The enemy is so close the Apaches will have to lay down their canon fire within 10 meters of the American position.
The soldier on the ground said, "I know it's high risk, but we need to get these guys off of us."
The pilot responded, "You got to be kidding me."
More Taliban are shooting down on them from those buildings. The Apaches make run after devastating run. They also come in firing their cannons, but the Taliban keep shooting back.
A desperately needed medevac tries to get in through the maelstrom, but instantly becomes a target.
Medevac pilot: "We're taking fire. We just got hit in the lower belly just to the north side of the aircraft."
The Apaches clear away a landing zone for the medevac.
Finally reinforcements arrive, and the tide of battle turns.
The battle took place a year ago in a valley that is now controlled by the Taliban. And it has triggered an investigation into why the 49 men of 2nd platoon were left so exposed so deep in enemy territory.
For much of its tour, the platoon was under incessant attack. Hunkered down at a base that was surrounded by high ground and could only be supplied by helicopter. Lt. Jonathon Brostrom set up a camera to record an assault on that base. When he was home on leave, he showed it to his father, retired Army Colonel David Brostrom.
"I was frankly shocked. They were getting attacked and probed every day, heavy attacks by enemy forces," said David Brostrom.
Brostrom's platoon and the other units fighting up and down the valley sometimes called in air strikes on houses from which they were taking fire.
"My son showed me that I said, you know, you just lost that village," said David Brostrom.
"We dropped 861 bombs with few questions asked," a senior commander is quoted as saying in a draft report for the Army Lesson's Learned Center obtained by CBS news.
They also fired white phospherous artillery at what they believed was a Taliban campfire. The rounds which were never intended to be used against personnel.
They were supposed to be protecting the population but according to the report the people "whose homes were being leveled and . . . Neighborhoods . . . Turned into battlefields . . . Saw no . . . Improvement in their lives and no real evidence of security."
Brostrom said, "You know, son, you need to get out of there." And he said, 'we are. We're moving to another location.'"
The new location - at Wanat - was supposed to be less exposed. But it was still in enemy territory.
David Dzwik was the sergeant of the platoon - 49 American and 24 Afghan soldiers. "I knew the mission had the potential of being quite hazardous," he said.
It was July and they were short of basic necessities. "The second day we were extremely low on water," said Dzwik. "When you start running out of water it's very hard to continue working through the heat of the day."
They had to take frequent breaks from preparing their defenses. Villagers knew what was about to happen.
Dzwik said, "a couple people came from the village, came up and said the enemy was going to attack."
Despite signs of an impending attack, unmanned surveillance drones which had been watching over the platoon were diverted to a higher priority mission.
A camera pointed at the sky recorded the first burst of machine gun fire.
"All hell broke loose," said Dzwik.
The first apache helicopters got there an hour and five minutes later.
Three-fourths of the Americans were killed or wounded.
"I pride myself on being able to push forward and kind of go through to do the job," said Dzwik. "For the first time in my career I actually stopped dead in my tracks when I came across the scene up there."
The Apache helicopter video shows American soldiers lying dead on the ground. One of them is David Brostrom's son.
"What did my son and what did those other sons die for?" asked Brostrom. "You have to do the investigation so this doesn't happen again."
Many of the soldiers on the videos are no longer alive. Nine were killed at Wanat.
Nine soldiers dead holding a piece of terrain which two days later the U.S. abandoned to the enemy.
Wanat is about the failure to implement and resource a sustained COIN effort. The merit of the M4 as a combat weapon is a sideshow.
CBS
Battle of Wanat - Inside the Ambush
AFGHANISTAN, Oct. 5, 2009
After nearly 15 months of relentless combat in Afghanistan, the soldiers of 2nd Platoon Charlie Company are filling their last sand bags. They shot video of themselves just 12 days before they were supposed to go home.
The outpost they are building is at a village called Wanat - deep in a remote and isolated Afghan valley surrounded by the mountain passes insurgents use to infiltrate from sanctuaries in Pakistan, as CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports.
Just four days later it would come dangerously close to being overrun by an estimated 200 Taliban fighters.
Apache helicopter pilots recorded video on gun camera tapes obtained by CBS News -- a furious fire fight, buildings in flames, and the only officer still alive on the ground calling for help.
"Be advised, we're in a bad situation . . . Need you to come in hot immediately," said the soldier on the ground.
The enemy is so close the Apaches will have to lay down their canon fire within 10 meters of the American position.
The soldier on the ground said, "I know it's high risk, but we need to get these guys off of us."
The pilot responded, "You got to be kidding me."
More Taliban are shooting down on them from those buildings. The Apaches make run after devastating run. They also come in firing their cannons, but the Taliban keep shooting back.
A desperately needed medevac tries to get in through the maelstrom, but instantly becomes a target.
Medevac pilot: "We're taking fire. We just got hit in the lower belly just to the north side of the aircraft."
The Apaches clear away a landing zone for the medevac.
Finally reinforcements arrive, and the tide of battle turns.
The battle took place a year ago in a valley that is now controlled by the Taliban. And it has triggered an investigation into why the 49 men of 2nd platoon were left so exposed so deep in enemy territory.
For much of its tour, the platoon was under incessant attack. Hunkered down at a base that was surrounded by high ground and could only be supplied by helicopter. Lt. Jonathon Brostrom set up a camera to record an assault on that base. When he was home on leave, he showed it to his father, retired Army Colonel David Brostrom.
"I was frankly shocked. They were getting attacked and probed every day, heavy attacks by enemy forces," said David Brostrom.
Brostrom's platoon and the other units fighting up and down the valley sometimes called in air strikes on houses from which they were taking fire.
"My son showed me that I said, you know, you just lost that village," said David Brostrom.
"We dropped 861 bombs with few questions asked," a senior commander is quoted as saying in a draft report for the Army Lesson's Learned Center obtained by CBS news.
They also fired white phospherous artillery at what they believed was a Taliban campfire. The rounds which were never intended to be used against personnel.
They were supposed to be protecting the population but according to the report the people "whose homes were being leveled and . . . Neighborhoods . . . Turned into battlefields . . . Saw no . . . Improvement in their lives and no real evidence of security."
Brostrom said, "You know, son, you need to get out of there." And he said, 'we are. We're moving to another location.'"
The new location - at Wanat - was supposed to be less exposed. But it was still in enemy territory.
David Dzwik was the sergeant of the platoon - 49 American and 24 Afghan soldiers. "I knew the mission had the potential of being quite hazardous," he said.
It was July and they were short of basic necessities. "The second day we were extremely low on water," said Dzwik. "When you start running out of water it's very hard to continue working through the heat of the day."
They had to take frequent breaks from preparing their defenses. Villagers knew what was about to happen.
Dzwik said, "a couple people came from the village, came up and said the enemy was going to attack."
Despite signs of an impending attack, unmanned surveillance drones which had been watching over the platoon were diverted to a higher priority mission.
A camera pointed at the sky recorded the first burst of machine gun fire.
"All hell broke loose," said Dzwik.
The first apache helicopters got there an hour and five minutes later.
Three-fourths of the Americans were killed or wounded.
"I pride myself on being able to push forward and kind of go through to do the job," said Dzwik. "For the first time in my career I actually stopped dead in my tracks when I came across the scene up there."
The Apache helicopter video shows American soldiers lying dead on the ground. One of them is David Brostrom's son.
"What did my son and what did those other sons die for?" asked Brostrom. "You have to do the investigation so this doesn't happen again."
Many of the soldiers on the videos are no longer alive. Nine were killed at Wanat.
Nine soldiers dead holding a piece of terrain which two days later the U.S. abandoned to the enemy.
Last edited:
- Location
- Lower Mainland
Siiiii.
If you can keep there heads down you can get in tight with ak and cut them up. its a status symbol if you cut a western soldier and live to tell about it because its so hard to do.
If you can keep there heads down you can get in tight with ak and cut them up. its a status symbol if you cut a western soldier and live to tell about it because its so hard to do.
The loose machine tolerances of the AK are a plus. When the temperature will lock up an M4 tight as a drum, the AK will happily plug right along. Bottom line, the U.S. is long overdue for a better individual firearm. And no matter what they choose, it will still go to the lowest bidder as always. It would have not made a difference, those poor boys were "fighting for their lives" and firing as fast and as much as they could.
It's funny to read Armchair Commandos telling other people they are Armchair Commandos.
Only They know the truth.
Only Their opinion counts.
Everyone one is a combat vet on the internet.
s**t. I did 14 tours with the 51st in Tran Dang Phoq, Quang Ngai, Qui Nhon and Nha Trang back in '71.
Advised the Queen on the Falklands
Then spent 6 years working with the Mohajadeen in Afghanistan
Only They know the truth.
Only Their opinion counts.
Everyone one is a combat vet on the internet.
s**t. I did 14 tours with the 51st in Tran Dang Phoq, Quang Ngai, Qui Nhon and Nha Trang back in '71.
Advised the Queen on the Falklands
Then spent 6 years working with the Mohajadeen in Afghanistan
- Status
