Webley MK 1 accuracy.. PICTURE HEAVY

Justins1877

Justins1877

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Good day fellas,


At the beginning of the year, I bought myself my first antique pistol, a Webley MK1 shaved for .45 ACP. Since I got it, I have had a pretty tough time getting it to group, even at extreme close range, inside 10 yards. It lays down a "grouping" of about 4" @ 10 yards. ( I'm sorry there are not pictures of the targets. )
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Since I cannot find any Trailboss, I have not been able to reload for this gun, so the next best thing was to use lead projectile reloaded rounds made by Wolf bullets, both in 200 gr SWC and 230 gr LRN, both producing around the same pattern.

Knowing that these do not shoot well in my gun, the next step is to find out why? Is the rifling shot out, is the lead too hard, is the barrel diameter too large for the .452 dia ACP?

Let's find out!

I started out by slugging the barrel to determine the dia. I couldn't find lead balls in the appropriate size, so I made my own with fishing weights. They were too small, so I got to thinking " Why don't I just use fire formed brass from the Webley? "
I melted the weights in an ACP cartridge and used a bullet puller to remove them.

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Here are the 3 that I did to get good readings off of. The rifling appears to be deep and pronounced.
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I than got the calipers out a began to get reading off all three.
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From what I understand, a lead projectile should be .1000 over the diameter of the barrel. This could be a factor in it's poor performance, but could it also be that the lead of the Wolf bullets being too hard? I have no way to check the BH, but I cannot dig my finger nail into it using a lot of force.

Anyone experiencing the same trend using these relics? Advice on how to correct this problem?

Looking forward to reading what other owners have to say. Thanks in advance!
 
I would try the original .455 bullets. Jethunter on here has them available for a reasonable price. The .452 bullets will likely not give good accuracy. It's amazing the groupings you will get with the original bullet.
I had a load for the .455 ACP with the 265gr HB bullet, but can't find it at this time. I used unique.
Beautiful gun by the way.

I would not use factory reloaded 45acp in an antique! Even with lead bullets.
 
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If you look you will find some info for reloading for this cartridge using a number of different powders. You basically want to load for .455 webley, only you are doing so in a .45acp case. There is more case volume than a MKII case so some tinkering with the load may be necessary.
I found my data and I ran 4.8gr unique under the factory 265 gr bullet. This was in a more modern hand ejector. I would start a little lower for your gun though.
 
wbaad said:
If you look you will find some info for reloading for this cartridge using a number of different powders. You basically want to load for .455 webley, only you are doing so in a .45acp case. There is more case volume than a MKII case so some tinkering with the load may be necessary.
I found my data and I ran 4.8gr unique under the factory 265 gr bullet. This was in a more modern hand ejector. I would start a little lower for your gun though.
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wbaad said:
I would try the original .455 bullets. Jethunter on here has them available for a reasonable price. The .452 bullets will likely not give good accuracy. It's amazing the groupings you will get with the original bullet.
I had a load for the .455 ACP with the 265gr HB bullet, but can't find it at this time. I used unique.
Beautiful gun by the way.

I would not use factory reloaded 45acp in an antique! Even with lead bullets.
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Thank you very much.
Many people use Wolf bullets in their antique Webley's, one of whom posts here that I'd consider an expert in these guns, Dingus. My chrony was reading 710 FPS for my beginning of the year production Wolf. G2G IMO, minus the horrid grouping. I will no longer be using them because of that though.
Will the 265gr .455 projectiles even load into a ACP cartridge? I will look into contacting him. Sadly, I cannot find unique either. :(
thanks for the lead, and good info "Wbaad" you rock.
 
99 % of webley MKIs and MKIIs have .452 bores not .455 ones. only the commercial guns seem to have the .455 to .460 bores the guns marked 455/476.
You should hold the caliper accross the bullet near the back end not up and down.
But most guns like yours are around .452 bore dia.
Get some bullets from Jethunter that are softer, alot of lead bullets are way to hard. barns bullets i find way to hard.
my Chrony reads Wolf swc lead bullet ammo and it is mild the most i ever got was 730 FPS which compared to 900+FPS for standard 45 acp ammo Wolf is loaded pretty light.
I prefer 455 webley 5 gr unique loads tho. lots of guys shoot the wolf 45 acp lead ammo in there antique webleys of the dozens and dozens doing it i have not herd or seen any reports of damage to there guns or shooting them loose its mild stuff not much hotter than 455 fiochhi which alot of people shoot in there 455 webleys.

my best loads are useing a Elmer keith SWC bullet sized .452 its not that hard i can mark it with my thumb nail.
I used to buy and use the propper 265 Gr HB webley bullets but i find the softer Keith type bullets better.
still 3 inch to 4 inch groups is about it at 15 to 20 yds off a rest some are better than others, theses are not target guns there close in defensive weapons for use in a trench full of mud and you can drop them in the mud and they still work try that with a S&W :)
There robust tough made guns.
I have a Webley MKI** upgraded gun with a MKVI six inch barrel and cylinder its antique still and i can get under 3 inch groups with it at 20 yds (off a rest) but its a six inch barreled gun.
Anyway Jethunters bullets are great i have tryed a few diffrent ones and like them all try some of his .452 softer bullets and see how you do.
 
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Another thought, if the lead is too hard and doesn't ' Bump up' into the bore...when you get something to bump up, it's going to put a test to your pistol. You might expect greater noise and recoil, and it will likely expose your pistol to a ( yet unexperienced) stress test.
I've an old 38-55 with a sewer pipe bore. Loads that were tame in it would rock your world in a tight bbl'd unit.
Personally, I run 4.5 grains of Unique behind a Webley HB 265 grained pill( 830 fps IIRC). It's lively in a S & W second model,; but I find 4.2 grains to be too mild (haven't chrono'd that load yet)
I'd be hesitant to run 4.8 grains in a Webley for sure.

Edit; there is a fellow in SW Sask who pours HB Webley 265 grainers too, but his are too hard. Using too much WW if I had to guess.
 
In my Webley Mk VI, the proper Webley shaped bullets with a hollow base and long tapered point work considerably better than various .451 bullets intended for 45 auto and 45 long colt. I think in part that the long tapered nose helps to guide the slug into the bore. The breach end of my barrel is not coned like an american revolver and possilbly that makes the gun more fussy about what I shoot out of it

cheers mooncoon
 
I use a flat-based .452 [SWC] lead bullet and the fast powder of IMR 700X....it seems to do the trick, but there's very much a need for care in doing the reloading.
 
cyclone said:
I use a flat-based .452 [SWC] lead bullet and the fast powder of IMR 700X....it seems to do the trick, but there's very much a need for care in doing the reloading.
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This would be my thoughts as well. I'm in the process of working up loads for my 44 Russian. I have enough Unique for this year but if it doesn't become available by the time I get close to the end of it I will try 700X CAREFULLY. The 700X is working very well in my Snider. My bullets have been wheel weights up till now but I'm casting some pure lead today on the advise of an experienced reloader.

My past research and efforts with Trail Boss lead me to recommend staying away from it.
 
Justins1877 said:
... I have had a pretty tough time getting it to group, even at extreme close range, inside 10 yards. It lays down a "grouping" of about 4" @ 10 yards.
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I feel your pain. I have an original Mk VI in v. good shape - no corrosion, locks up tight, etc. - and even with the proper Webley bullets (not in this case from Jethunter, although I have some of his other bullets as well), Mk. II cases and Unique (also tried 231) I get groups like yours. As someone stated, these aren't target guns, but still I have heard of some folks getting very respectable accuracy from them.

FWIW, here's a pic of a fired bullet from mine:
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It measures .449-.451 (depending on the position of the calipers). This was fired with a minimal "cat-sneeze" load (using Trail Boss as I recall) into dry phone books so perhaps not representative of what a full-power load would do, although given the Webley's modest ballistics, there might not be much difference!

:) Stuart
 
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The Webley's didn't have a forcing cone in the breech end of the barrel. Instead, they used a smaller than bore dimension on the forcing cone portion (front) of the Cylinder. This mechanical arrangement worked well with the hollow base bullets they used in these revolvers. However, when hard cast flat base bullets are used, the cylinder forcing cone sizes them down before they hit the barrel rifling and all bets are off for accuracy.

On some of my Mk2 and Mk3's, I've reamed out the cylinder forcing cones to .452 diameter (same as bore) and that greatly improved the accuracy with flat base bullets. If you don't wish to go this route, then try to find some pure lead cast bullets that will obturate at the pressure levels that the 455 cartridges operate at. I had some cold swaged pure lead bullets that worked great in a stock Webley Mk1. I used Alliant "Blue Dot" powder in reduced charges (approx. 5-6grs depending on whether i used the longer mk1 cases, of the shorter mk2 variety.
 
jakester said:
The Webley's didn't have a forcing cone in the breech end of the barrel. Instead, they used a smaller than bore dimension on the forcing cone portion (front) of the Cylinder. This mechanical arrangement worked well with the hollow base bullets they used in these revolvers. However, when hard cast flat base bullets are used, the cylinder forcing cone sizes them down before they hit the barrel rifling and all bets are off for accuracy.

On some of my Mk2 and Mk3's, I've reamed out the cylinder forcing cones to .452 diameter (same as bore) and that greatly improved the accuracy with flat base bullets. If you don't wish to go this route, then try to find some pure lead cast bullets that will obturate at the pressure levels that the 455 cartridges operate at. I had some cold swaged pure lead bullets that worked great in a stock Webley Mk1. I used Alliant "Blue Dot" powder in reduced charges (approx. 5-6grs depending on whether i used the longer mk1 cases, of the shorter mk2 variety.
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I was just going to mention this .

opening up the throat in the cylinder will also reduce pressures by not creating a pressure spike when the cylinder is forced to swag down the bullet .
it may only be a few thou , but it can make a huge difference .
 
I have spent a lot of time shooting and repairing these old webleys. Accuracy is not "target grade" and that is not what they were designed or built for. If you can get 3" groups at 10 yards then you probably shouldn't expect much better. I have seen some Webley MKI and MKII revolvers that will shoot better, and many that would not. Guns with loose hinges and latches, worn rifling, and misaligned cylinders may shoot considerably worse.

In my experience the two most important factors to obtain the best accuracy from the webley is the ammo, and the frame hinge.

A loose frame hinge and latch is often the culprit when a webley shoots pie plate groups at 10 yards. I've checked several otherwise good condition webleys with loose hinges that shot improved cylinder patterns at 25 yards. :) Repairing the hinge slop on these revolvers improved group size remarkably. Any amount of play will translate into larger groups. I've had very good results tightening up the frame and latches and cutting group size in half or better in many cases.

The other major improvement we can make to webley revolvers is in the ammo. Webleys have tight cylinder throats and light rifling - which is not a recipe for accuracy, but there are a couple Things that can be done to make it better. The first is to use soft lead bullets. Hollow base or flat base bullets at BHN 8 or softer are the answer. The second thing is your powder charge - use a "stout" charge, relatively speaking. The combination of soft lead bullets with a healthy load will help the bullet base to expand, sealing the bore and gripping that weak webley rifling. Hard bullets don't expand. Too light powder charges don't encourage the bullet base to expand. I've had best results with healthy loads of Unique. For lighter loads faster powder like 700 seem to work better.

Tight frame = better accuracy
Soft bullets + healthy load of powder = better accuracy.

In my experience the flat based bullets can be made to shoot just as accurately or even better than the traditional hollow base bullets. The HB "webley" bullet is not a great design for accuracy because the long skinny nose is unsupported, and the base is hollow - there's very little support in this bullet design to centre the bullet in the bore. But the HB bullets are much better in one regard - they add a useful increased powder capacity and therefore more velocity at the same pressure as compared to a flat based bullet. Maximum loadings are higher for the HB bullet. The 455 webley MKII brass is very short and any increase in powder capacity is a good thing.
 
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jethunter said:
I have spent a lot of time shooting and repairing these old webleys....
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Thanks for this! I must check my frame hinge. It seems tight, but if the old girl was used to knock a few Bosche on the head as well, something might be amiss. I'll also try some of the 250 gr. HP .45 bullets I got from you, which are pretty soft.

:) Stuart
 
So much knowledge contained on this site. Thanks everyone for the insight/information, I'm very appreciative.

I'm still having serious issues from the MK, but i'm not going to give up just yet. The first step i'm going to take is to find pure lead, or very low tin mixture projectiles to see if that improves the accuracy a bit.

The next and final drastic step I'm considering is having a .452 barrel insert installed by Bits & Pieces.

Thanks again everyone!
 
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