I believe you mean "hydrostatic shock" as opposed to hydraulic. I'm a firm believer in the fact that both the hole from the bullet in vital organs causing blood loss combined with hydrostatic shock are the cause of death. I take the term "energy dump" to be the hydrostatic shock the bullet imposes on the animal. With these thoughts in mind, I tend to go for the high shoulder shot...I've seen more animals drop on the spot with the high shoulder shot than animals shot in the vitals just behind the shoulder (usually a double lung).
What a bullet does to an animal when it hits
- Thread starter Duffy
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I believe you mean "hydrostatic shock" as opposed to hydraulic. I'm a firm believer in the fact that both the hole from the bullet in vital organs causing blood loss combined with hydrostatic shock are the cause of death. I take the term "energy dump" to be the hydrostatic shock the bullet imposes on the animal. With these thoughts in mind, I tend to go for the high shoulder shot...I've seen more animals drop on the spot with the high shoulder shot than animals shot in the vitals just behind the shoulder (usually a double lung).
YES and No.
Besides the "hydrostatic shock" you are describing, there is apparently the theory that blood rushes away from the bullets path up and down blood vessels and can cause increased blood pressure (hydraulic pressure) and circulatory problems.
Here is a description from an engineering viewpoint:
Hydraulic Shock
Hydraulic shock is the term used to describe the momentary pressure rise in a piping system which results when the liquid is started or stopped quickly. This pressure rise is caused by the momentum of the fluid; therefore, the pressure rise increases with the velocity of the liquid, the length of the system from the fluid source, or with an increase in the speed with which it is started or stopped. Examples of situations where hydraulic shock can occur are valves, which are opened or closed quickly, or pumps, which start with an empty discharge line. Hydraulic shock can even occur if a high speed wall of liquid (as from a starting pump) hits a sudden change of direction in the piping, such as an elbow. The pressure rise created by the hydraulic shock effect is added to whatever fluid pressure exists in the piping system and, although only momentary, this shock load can be enough to burst pipe and break fittings or valves.
Hydrostatic shock is a big player anyone who has ever tried to head shoot a cow with a .22 knows that simply piercing an organ does not insure instant death. Massive amounts of energy are required to cause cells to burst from the violent movement of fluids caused by hydrostatic shock. An ideal bullet will penetrate to the organs, expand sufficiently to cause physical wounds and then deposit all it's energy inside its target causing the most shock possible. It's been theorized that a massive disruption like that causes a large disruption to the nervous system as well and help to ensure an instant kill. An exit wound is not necessary in the event of a well placed shot hitting a vital organ. The animal will simply bleed out inside its own chest cavity. All an exit wound signifies is wasted energy. That's why many coyotes shot with a .308 will keep running for a hundred or so yards after a vital shot when the same shot with an exploding bullet from a .223 will kill it instantly. There is more energy transfer with the .223 because the size of the bullet fits the game better.
Using a more complex method, suggest what bullet, cartridge combo you would suggest will cause the speediest demise of a animal the size of a big white or muley buck. That will take care of 90% of the worlds game.
Next come up with an optimum choice for elephant, buffalo, giraffe, eland or hippo. Google it you have to.
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With today's variations in bullet construction....optimum is definitely a multi faceted target. Rules regarding bullets and cartridge choice are like rules regarding first dates....they are open for interpretation. Guys like Taylor were a genius in their day but this isn't their day any more.
Perhaps not the way you wanted me to but I most certainly did.....the vast varieties of bullet construction we enjoy today make pretty well all rules about speed, caliber and cartridge obsolete. It was so much easier to make rules when we only shot unjacketed lead bullets....
Whaaaaaa?
I second this...wow...
I really wish all threads on hunting forums about how bullets kill and which ones are better for what were nuked out of existence by a greater being...there are some downright entertaining tidbits at times but often it is just frustrating to read.
Personally I tend to agree with Dogleg...lighter contruction bullets for light game kill pretty damn good....TSXs et al for larger big game (moose and elk) are just dandy but if you don't make a habit of driving bullets into heavy bone at high velocities or taking shots that require 4 feet of penetration to reach vital organs then they are not needed...there's my opinion formed from my experience.
Bullets put holes through vital organs...expanding bullets make bigger holes causing more physical trauma thus things die quicker...........thanks for the thread Duff....
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Reading this thread made me think of this article I read a few days ago: http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/55
Speaks volumes about modern bullets.
Speaks volumes about modern bullets.
Whaaaaaa?
What don't you get? If you shoot a coyote broadside with a .223 at a hundred yards and the bullet grenades inside him he just took 1000ft/lbs of energy in the vitals. Shoot the same coyote with a .308 using the same construction of bullet in the same spot and its going to zip through him using up how much energy? Just cause he gets hit with a bullet that has 2000ft/lbs of energy doesn't mean it gets used up, in fact because of the higher sectional density (bullets with high s/d use less of their energy to penetrate game) of the .308 I doubt 1/3 of the energy is used up on a coyote in a lot of cases. Meaning the .223 transfers more energy because it is better suited to that size of game.
Likely has more to do with all the fragmentation because of bullet construction than the energy death ray. Although one does have to factor in the photo-static shock. Seriously though, section density really has little to do with penetration unless you are comparing identically constructed bullets. It's an obsolete formula. Again, what you describe is everything to do with bullet construction and next to nothing to do with calibre. Pretty easy to make a 223 zip right through a coyote or a deer for that matter.
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Nice to see you have a sense of humour for the subject. Instead of spreading pure apple sauce.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The big picture answer Duffy, is there is no answer. The internet will make doubly sure of that. They've moved towards what works best largely through trial and error, and not science.
The science attempted in the public realm is sketchy at best as it's usually trying to hawk a product, and even some mil stuff is terrible. Reference the Thompson-LaGarde pistol tests of the early 1900's. Buffoonery and bad science at its best, creating a myth that has endured for a century that the .45ACP contains some form of magical "stopping power". It is in actuality identical to just about any other pistol cartridge, and worse than a good few.
One rule that is undeniable is speed kills, it's the whole principle of ballistic wounds. The next rule that is undeniable is that of diminishing returns. It seems that curve starts to level off around 2,000fps, higher helps, but not always, and that's just my non-scientific opinion which is also likely hogwash. Stopping power is more sorcery than science, and often misguided, big bullets only seem to have more on bigger animals in my experience, a .243 works as well as my .375 on deer, also my likely delusional take on things. Having been married to TSXs and the like, then shooting Federal Blue box with excellent results as well on very big things, my opinions have softened severely. I've shot an awful lot of things with an awful lot of bullets, they all died.
Finally, the third rule; Nothing good nor productive will come of this thread. It's all opinions.
The science attempted in the public realm is sketchy at best as it's usually trying to hawk a product, and even some mil stuff is terrible. Reference the Thompson-LaGarde pistol tests of the early 1900's. Buffoonery and bad science at its best, creating a myth that has endured for a century that the .45ACP contains some form of magical "stopping power". It is in actuality identical to just about any other pistol cartridge, and worse than a good few.
One rule that is undeniable is speed kills, it's the whole principle of ballistic wounds. The next rule that is undeniable is that of diminishing returns. It seems that curve starts to level off around 2,000fps, higher helps, but not always, and that's just my non-scientific opinion which is also likely hogwash. Stopping power is more sorcery than science, and often misguided, big bullets only seem to have more on bigger animals in my experience, a .243 works as well as my .375 on deer, also my likely delusional take on things. Having been married to TSXs and the like, then shooting Federal Blue box with excellent results as well on very big things, my opinions have softened severely. I've shot an awful lot of things with an awful lot of bullets, they all died.
Finally, the third rule; Nothing good nor productive will come of this thread. It's all opinions.
Bullet construction isn't everything. I bet good money a 40 grain hollow point out of a .22 rimfire will not kill a 1500lb cow on the first shot but the same bullet out of a .223 will. Both shots going right between the eyes. The ideal cartridge bullet combo is the one that reaches the vitals and deposits all its energy on them but doesnt leave the body, the cartridge/bullet combo that achieves the highest level of energy but doesn't leave the body is the ideal one for that situation. Once you start blowing through the other side your just wasting energy.
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Apparently we are going to have to agree to disagree. There are always going to be people that believe in the mythical powers of energy....I'm not one of them...nor is the science of physics. Energy is not a killing force but it sure allows a bullet to do a whole lot of work. What type of work it does is primarily controlled by its constriction but yes, it needs energy to do that work.
