What a bullet does to an animal when it hits

im gonna take a stab here.

you want a bullet that can impart as much energy into the target as possible INSIDE the target not on the skin.
the same .223 that grenades inside a yote. id going to grenade on the outside of a moose. and certainly not kill fast.

a .308 that creates a massive wound channel and liquifies the lungs and heart of a moose and drops out the other side or stays inside is going to kill faster than a bullet that goes through and through and doesent slow down (ie a FMJ vs a hollowpoint) there has to be energy transfer from the bullet to the target in order to kill the target fast and effectively. that energy transfer happens by having the bullet slow down fast inside the target. if it does not slow down it imparts very little energy into the target and creates very little damage.

it is the energy that all in all kills the target as that energy causes damage to the organs greater damage kills faster.
 
Ardent said:
The big picture answer Duffy, is there is no answer. The internet will make doubly sure of that. They've moved towards what works best largely through trial and error, and not science.

The science attempted in the public realm is sketchy at best as it's usually trying to hawk a product, and even some mil stuff is terrible. Reference the Thompson-LaGarde pistol tests of the early 1900's. Buffoonery and bad science at its best, creating a myth that has endured for a century that the .45ACP contains some form of magical "stopping power". It is in actuality identical to just about any other pistol cartridge, and worse than a good few.

One rule that is undeniable is speed kills, it's the whole principle of ballistic wounds. The next rule that is undeniable is that of diminishing returns. It seems that curve starts to level off around 2,000fps, higher helps, but not always, and that's just my non-scientific opinion which is also likely hogwash. Stopping power is more sorcery than science, and often misguided, big bullets only seem to have more on bigger animals in my experience, a .243 works as well as my .375 on deer, also my likely delusional take on things. Having been married to TSXs and the like, then shooting Federal Blue box with excellent results as well on very big things, my opinions have softened severely. I've shot an awful lot of things with an awful lot of bullets, they all died.

Finally, the third rule; Nothing good nor productive will come of this thread. It's all opinions. :)
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I agree with much of what you have said. However man has always looked at the results of an event and asked "hummm! (scratches head) why did that happen?"

Sometimes we examine the information available and come up with a pretty good answer that many (never all) can agree with. Sometimes we get all sorts of possible answers and proponents of each. Sometimes we don't even agree or understand what we are looking for to begin with and so are bound to disagree.

On a board such as this it is usually hard to agree on anything more complicated that "do you like apple pie?" (now some joker is going to come on and say they are allergic to apples, or gluten)

But I though it might be interesting to discuss what we think about this subject.
 
Ardent said:
The big picture answer Duffy, is there is no answer. The internet will make doubly sure of that. They've moved towards what works best largely through trial and error, and not science.

The science attempted in the public realm is sketchy at best as it's usually trying to hawk a product, and even some mil stuff is terrible. Reference the Thompson-LaGarde pistol tests of the early 1900's. Buffoonery and bad science at its best, creating a myth that has endured for a century that the .45ACP contains some form of magical "stopping power". It is in actuality identical to just about any other pistol cartridge, and worse than a good few.

One rule that is undeniable is speed kills, it's the whole principle of ballistic wounds. The next rule that is undeniable is that of diminishing returns. It seems that curve starts to level off around 2,000fps, higher helps, but not always, and that's just my non-scientific opinion which is also likely hogwash. Stopping power is more sorcery than science, and often misguided, big bullets only seem to have more on bigger animals in my experience, a .243 works as well as my .375 on deer, also my likely delusional take on things. Having been married to TSXs and the like, then shooting Federal Blue box with excellent results as well on very big things, my opinions have softened severely. I've shot an awful lot of things with an awful lot of bullets, they all died.

Finally, the third rule; Nothing good nor productive will come of this thread. It's all opinions. :)
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If speed kills is the rule then why were the buffalo guns of old so effective? A black powder .45-70 has very little speed behind it but people used them to nearly wipe out the american buffalo.
 
thing said:
If speed kills is the rule then why were the buffalo guns of old so effective? A black powder .45-70 has very little speed behind it but people used them to nearly wipe out the american buffalo.
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Trying to avoid getting sucked into the vortex, but 1,000fps kills better than 100fps, 3,000fps kills better than 300fps. You need speed to kill. Heavy is a substitute for speed, and while the Springfield level .45-70 kills well, a .458 Lott does a lot better. 1000fps and up starts to work reliably, 2000fps (the .450-400 Nitro, heavy .375 H&H, .30-30, and on and on reach and exceed this figure). In Africa, on the toughest things out there, it was found the "small" bores (.470's, .450's, .375's) at their 2,000fps+ worked better or at least equally well to the big 1,000fps 8 bore etc rifles.
 
Start at the bottom. All living things are made of cells. Aggregates of cells form tissues. Aggregates thereof are called organs... The next hierarchical class is an organism. Take one step back to organ: once and organ is destroyed, the organism which it supports cannot survive. Any bullet or broadhead which destroys/sufficiently impairs an organ will ultimately lead to a critter's downfall (in the absence of said organ's function). The organ/organs damaged/destroyed and the degree of damage will dictate how quickly...

Echoes of professor's lectures out of my head, I'll swear up and down that a 150 from a .270 Win has seemed (for me anyway) to drop a deer more quickly than a 150 from a .308 Win, range etc, being held equal. I could argue that each 150 grain bullet destroys whatever deer organ(s) it hits... Does the .270 destroy it/them more, leading to the anecdotal quicker kills? Hydrostatic or hydraulic shock?


Do each taste the same?


Yup.

Good question Duffy.

Stef
 
Round and round the discussion goes. From my experience on deer:

1) under 100 yards my muzzle loader with 300 gr XTP's knocks them right down and they stay down. Over 100 not so good
2) rifle bullets. Hornady interlocks produced very bad results on deer. Most moved well over 50 yards before tipping over and bullets did little damage.
3) Nosler ballitic tips have been absolutely fool proof on deer. I put them through the boiler room and they go down in less than two steps

IMHO the ballistic tip style of bullet performs better. I'll go with direct experience any day.

two bullets of equal mass and velocity have the same kinetic energy. One bullet is a premium style that penetrates and exits. The other bullet expands rapidly in the animal and does not exit. The premium bullet still has kinetic energy therefore less of the total energy was dumped into the animal. The rapid expansion dumped all of its kinetic energy into the deer.
To me energy = damage. More energy in the animal = more damage. ( especially if it is in the body cavity )
 
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The video in that "a proper headshot" thread will definitely get the point across about how well those ballistic tips can work and how important energy transfer is to a clean kill.
 
Ots said:
Bullet construction isn't everything. I bet good money a 40 grain hollow point out of a .22 rimfire will not kill a 1500lb cow on the first shot but the same bullet out of a .223 will. Both shots going right between the eyes. The ideal cartridge bullet combo is the one that reaches the vitals and deposits all its energy on them but doesnt leave the body, the cartridge/bullet combo that achieves the highest level of energy but doesn't leave the body is the ideal one for that situation. Once you start blowing through the other side your just wasting energy.
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If you fire a 40 gr. lead hollow point at .223 velocities the likely result is that the bullet will disintegrate without penetrating at all.

Personally, I would never trust a bullet that wouldn't exit on a broadside lung shot; it probably would not have sufficient penetration to get the job done from other angles.
 
LOL!!! I get a kick out of "I know it all threads" from the "high post" know it all's. Another simple question for a difficult answer.
 
track said:
Why would I, it appears as usual that you know everything, or is it that your overly opinonated like et al on talk forums.
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I know a bit about killing things. In fact, I'll put my best morning up against the best year of your life in the area of killing large animals with rifles. Its tempting to make that decade. Some opinions do get formed in the process.
 
We have used .22 lr for slaughtering cattle more than anything else over the years...they drop instantly more often than not...though I would say its more of a stun with the heart still pumping. Not sure if they would get up again or not if they weren't bled out.


Ots said:
Bullet construction isn't everything. I bet good money a 40 grain hollow point out of a .22 rimfire will not kill a 1500lb cow on the first shot but the same bullet out of a .223 will. Both shots going right between the eyes. The ideal cartridge bullet combo is the one that reaches the vitals and deposits all its energy on them but doesnt leave the body, the cartridge/bullet combo that achieves the highest level of energy but doesn't leave the body is the ideal one for that situation. Once you start blowing through the other side your just wasting energy.
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Dogleg said:
I know a bit about killing things. In fact, I'll put my best morning up against the best year of your life in the area of killing large animals with rifles. Its tempting to make that decade. Some opinions do get formed in the process.
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Totally agree, you have completed many disiplines in life according to your post count. I've harvested a little over 160 big game animals (which dosen't include time accompanied with family, friends and 8 years of professional guiding). Yes I know you "probably" surpassed my kill count, however; how many have you killed tracking and killing an animal "on your own?" It's most easy to kill, especially in western Canada (needless to say Africa is killing fish in a barrel) animals are quite abundant, but how were they killed, what hunting method?...................hopefully not the easy way.
 
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bearkilr said:
Nah, they're dead. Heartbeat isn't controlled by the brain, the heart has it's own electrical system.
I've seen pig hearts beating for up to ten minutes after. That's why cutting the jugular after a headshot makes them bleed out so well.
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Gotcha...but either way, they drop as fast as gravity pulls them down. So I would say it works just fine.
 
We had a steer shot with a .22 once. When he fell, we went with the knife and were startled to find a heartbeat. Immediately mom called for help. Within about 2 minutes the ambulance arrived and the vet met them at the gate. Now obviously, there was no way of getting the animal in the ambulance, I guess we knew that before we even called, but if there was a chance, well, .... We would do what we could. Through the efforts of emt's, who I can still name to this day ( Paul, Lisa and randy) we were able to get "ballsy" our steer, stabilized in the stable. Ballsy would remain in the stable on life support for another 3 months. We all took turns sitting with him. The vet had told us it was no use...but this was our ballsy, and we weren't wanting to hear any of it. On may 12 th, I still remember the day...it was sunny, and a new brood of chicks had just hatched that morning,... Ballsy opened an eye, than another.... Dad was with him at the time and ran in to get us all.

Over the next two weeks, we gave ballsy this odd smelling drink nutrition as provided by the vet.

2 months later, ballsy was back to his old weight again. Eating fresh grass, no ill effects. It was a miracle.

We all felt kinda strange shooting ballsy with a .223 a week later, but we learned our lesson and are better for it.
 
sealhunter said:
We had a steer shot with a .22 once. When he fell, we went with the knife and were startled to find a heartbeat. Immediately mom called for help. Within about 2 minutes the ambulance arrived and the vet met them at the gate. Now obviously, there was no way of getting the animal in the ambulance, I guess we knew that before we even called, but if there was a chance, well, .... We would do what we could. Through the efforts of emt's, who I can still name to this day ( Paul, Lisa and randy) we were able to get "ballsy" our steer, stabilized in the stable. Ballsy would remain in the stable on life support for another 3 months. We all took turns sitting with him. The vet had told us it was no use...but this was our ballsy, and we weren't wanting to hear any of it. On may 12 th, I still remember the day...it was sunny, and a new brood of chicks had just hatched that morning,... Ballsy opened an eye, than another.... Dad was with him at the time and ran in to get us all.

Over the next two weeks, we gave ballsy this odd smelling drink nutrition as provided by the vet.

2 months later, ballsy was back to his old weight again. Eating fresh grass, no ill effects. It was a miracle.

We all felt kinda strange shooting ballsy with a .223 a week later, but we learned our lesson and are better for it.
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I like my beefsteak................but that is one strange story friend.
 
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