Shelldrake
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Is there such a thing?
What cal? .243 or 6mm x 47 Lapua??
- Thread starter scott_r
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I went through the same scenario a few years ago. Fellow competitors (1000yd competition) steered me away from the 6mm-6.5x47, barrel life, and low ES difficulty were some of the issues sighted.
I settled on a 6mm Dasher, 105 class bullets 2850 to 2930 ft/s are normal , velocity is dictated to where the node is with varying powder types.
ES is single digit on the best loads and case prep. Case forming loads are <1moa which is good for practice and not considered a waste. Competition loads are <0.5moa until the wind becomes a factor, 5 shot groups in a sporter weight rifle.
Case life is very long and don't get a donut when sized with a Lee collet die.
I settled on a 6mm Dasher, 105 class bullets 2850 to 2930 ft/s are normal , velocity is dictated to where the node is with varying powder types.
ES is single digit on the best loads and case prep. Case forming loads are <1moa which is good for practice and not considered a waste. Competition loads are <0.5moa until the wind becomes a factor, 5 shot groups in a sporter weight rifle.
Case life is very long and don't get a donut when sized with a Lee collet die.
Shelldrake
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Are you referring to 6mm CM?,, ie. 6mm Competition Match?
I have a bit of trouble beleiving the claims (creator actually claims 4000+ rounds) about the 6 Comp Match since the loads they are listing are virtually identical to what I used in my 6mm Crusader (6mm Rem. blown out). They are getting the same velocities with a 115 DTAC with about 1 gr. less of the same powders (H1000 and Retumbo). That means they are running it at a higher pressure, which should mean less barrel life. The case's neck is also way shorter that of the Crusader, which should also mean less barrel life. All of my Crusader barrels died at 2100 rounds or a bit over that. Not sure how 1 gr. less of the same powder in a slightly smaller case that has a much shorter neck is supposed to double that. Doesn't make sense to me, and have yet to hear an explination for that.
The Team Blaster guys tried the Comp. Match and didn't find it lived up to the barrel life claims when shooting it in PRS style matches. See Rob01's comments here:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_7/4551_6-Super-LR-vs-6-Competition-Match.html
The creator shoots NRA high power, so maybe it has something to do with the slower rate of fire...
The Team Blaster guys tried the Comp. Match and didn't find it lived up to the barrel life claims when shooting it in PRS style matches. See Rob01's comments here:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_7/4551_6-Super-LR-vs-6-Competition-Match.html
The creator shoots NRA high power, so maybe it has something to do with the slower rate of fire...
Thank you for the link- its a good conversation on the topic
I think Joe was only claiming 3k and a couple guys on the 6BR forum appeared to have experience that backed that number up, but as with all things barrels, there are a lot of variables that as readers we don't get to understand- most important of all- the individual standards by which various folks identify barrels as 'dead'. If someone shot inside 600 yards for the last 1200 rounds of a barrel's life, would they have known when it was no longer competitive at long range? The slow rate of fire, of course, has a significant effect on throat wear.
We're all out here looking for 'best cartridge', and it's pretty entertaining. At the end of the day in PRS, after getting a 105+ gr 6mm over 3000 fps, the only other detail that matters is practice- and most of that can be accomplished with a rimfire.
The 6x47L, 6 Creed, 6CM, and 243 Win and AI are all essentially identical when it comes to performance. Some have upsides like a single step neck down; others have the benefit of no worries about loosing brass at the cost of having to trim often. Each has the requirement of fireforming, annealing etc for better performance, so those factors are pretty null.
One variable I'm curious to see the effects of with the CM is feeding reliability. It should work...
I think Joe was only claiming 3k and a couple guys on the 6BR forum appeared to have experience that backed that number up, but as with all things barrels, there are a lot of variables that as readers we don't get to understand- most important of all- the individual standards by which various folks identify barrels as 'dead'. If someone shot inside 600 yards for the last 1200 rounds of a barrel's life, would they have known when it was no longer competitive at long range? The slow rate of fire, of course, has a significant effect on throat wear.
We're all out here looking for 'best cartridge', and it's pretty entertaining. At the end of the day in PRS, after getting a 105+ gr 6mm over 3000 fps, the only other detail that matters is practice- and most of that can be accomplished with a rimfire.
The 6x47L, 6 Creed, 6CM, and 243 Win and AI are all essentially identical when it comes to performance. Some have upsides like a single step neck down; others have the benefit of no worries about loosing brass at the cost of having to trim often. Each has the requirement of fireforming, annealing etc for better performance, so those factors are pretty null.
One variable I'm curious to see the effects of with the CM is feeding reliability. It should work...
On the topic of cartridge selection- it may sound backwards to some, but I've become a fan of selecting a cartridge based on component availability first these days. In order of importance- dies, brass, reamer, barrel, and powder. The other parts are easier to deal with.
Any cartridge with an improved shoulder and longer neck is a great place to start. Nothing wrong with a 243, but you would want any cartridge to be throated for longer heavier bullets and a fast enough twist to handle them.
I have an SLR and have an accurate node at about 3100fps with Berger 105 Hybrids, Neck turned Lapua brass and H4831SC. I also took that up to 3260 fps while looking for pressure signs and had none, maybe due to tight tolerances with my BAT action, chamber and brass sizing? I didn't want to go any higher though as my case was full and previous loads using Hornady brass were pancaking primers right flat at about 3160 fps.
Barrel life is very subjective, some people will throw a barrel away once it opens up to 1/2" groups, others 1"+. Some guys have 4000+ through a 243 (who knows what kind of accuracy)
Also lots of variables, the barrel itself (make, profile, composition, heat exchange characteristics like Falkors borrowed Straight Jacket Barrel System), cartridge (shoulder angle, neck length, velocities), shooting style (fast and hot vs slow and cold bore), powders being used (H1000 vs H4350).
Like Max-x says component availability is huge, the other stuff not as much.
Bullet selection is probably one of the biggest factors as some bullets are better than others and at longer ranges this makes a big difference.
The 105 Berger Hybrids were the staple for the 6mm but that might change with Sierras new 110 Grain HPBT with a g1 BC of 0.617 (no G7 # yet) > Berger 105 hybrids of 0.536 and the Berger 115 hunting vld at 0.568.
Using Bergers Ballistics Calculator a 105 hybrid at 3100 fps is supersonic to almost 1500 yards
a 110 Sierra at the same velocity get it to almost 1800 yards supersonic
with a 10 mph wind at 600 Yards the Berger has 2.1" more wind deflection.
At 1000 yards the Berger has 7.75" more wind deflection than the Sierra
at 1400 yards the Berger has 22" more wind deflection.
Disclaimer: I have not been out that far with this cartridge yet to confirm what the calculator is telling me.
Here is a 300 yard group while load testing. Berger 105 Hybrids with 45.2 Grains of H4831SC in Lapua neck turned 243 brass (not weight sorted) BR2 primers, approx 3100 fps.
Yes it's only a 3 shot group (I fine tune with 5 shot groups after) but this is the best grouping I have ever achieved, Ever.
But now I have to start over with these Sierra 110's I just ordered.
I have an SLR and have an accurate node at about 3100fps with Berger 105 Hybrids, Neck turned Lapua brass and H4831SC. I also took that up to 3260 fps while looking for pressure signs and had none, maybe due to tight tolerances with my BAT action, chamber and brass sizing? I didn't want to go any higher though as my case was full and previous loads using Hornady brass were pancaking primers right flat at about 3160 fps.
Barrel life is very subjective, some people will throw a barrel away once it opens up to 1/2" groups, others 1"+. Some guys have 4000+ through a 243 (who knows what kind of accuracy)
Also lots of variables, the barrel itself (make, profile, composition, heat exchange characteristics like Falkors borrowed Straight Jacket Barrel System), cartridge (shoulder angle, neck length, velocities), shooting style (fast and hot vs slow and cold bore), powders being used (H1000 vs H4350).
Like Max-x says component availability is huge, the other stuff not as much.
Bullet selection is probably one of the biggest factors as some bullets are better than others and at longer ranges this makes a big difference.
The 105 Berger Hybrids were the staple for the 6mm but that might change with Sierras new 110 Grain HPBT with a g1 BC of 0.617 (no G7 # yet) > Berger 105 hybrids of 0.536 and the Berger 115 hunting vld at 0.568.
Using Bergers Ballistics Calculator a 105 hybrid at 3100 fps is supersonic to almost 1500 yards
a 110 Sierra at the same velocity get it to almost 1800 yards supersonic
with a 10 mph wind at 600 Yards the Berger has 2.1" more wind deflection.
At 1000 yards the Berger has 7.75" more wind deflection than the Sierra
at 1400 yards the Berger has 22" more wind deflection.
Disclaimer: I have not been out that far with this cartridge yet to confirm what the calculator is telling me.
Here is a 300 yard group while load testing. Berger 105 Hybrids with 45.2 Grains of H4831SC in Lapua neck turned 243 brass (not weight sorted) BR2 primers, approx 3100 fps.
Yes it's only a 3 shot group (I fine tune with 5 shot groups after) but this is the best grouping I have ever achieved, Ever.
But now I have to start over with these Sierra 110's I just ordered.
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I did a 6x47 Lapua a while ago and it was the most accurate rifle I ever had... Not to make this a competition, but even better than pictures above... seriously.
I could not get it to work worth a darn using the small Lapua case primers though.
In the end I went with 6XC cases for the large primers, sized then down and then got single digit SDs. The large primer is the ticket if you ask me.
Velocity was so consistent that I had to turn off the chronograph between shots because it was almost always the same number.
The 6x47 was easy to tune once I got the ignition issue put to bed and really consistent from day to day. If I had only one rifle it would be the 6x47 with large primers and 115 grain bullets.
I would caution you against going with anything hotter than the 6x47 if you expect any kind of barrel life. If you cant reach it with 38 grains of powder and more than 3000 fps, you are doing something wrong. It will never beat a 6.5-06 AI at long range, so don't bother to try with a 6mm.
You can PM me if you'd like more details on the 6x47.
I could not get it to work worth a darn using the small Lapua case primers though.
In the end I went with 6XC cases for the large primers, sized then down and then got single digit SDs. The large primer is the ticket if you ask me.
Velocity was so consistent that I had to turn off the chronograph between shots because it was almost always the same number.
The 6x47 was easy to tune once I got the ignition issue put to bed and really consistent from day to day. If I had only one rifle it would be the 6x47 with large primers and 115 grain bullets.
I would caution you against going with anything hotter than the 6x47 if you expect any kind of barrel life. If you cant reach it with 38 grains of powder and more than 3000 fps, you are doing something wrong. It will never beat a 6.5-06 AI at long range, so don't bother to try with a 6mm.
You can PM me if you'd like more details on the 6x47.
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Never had a problem with the small primers in the 6x47L. CCI 450 and Rem 7.5 both work great.
This is typical of the SD I get:
That was with H4350 and 105 hybrids. RL-23 works well with 115 DTACs.
4 barrels (7, 2x 7.5 and an 8 twist) and all have given similar SDs, even in temperatures requiring gloves to shoot.
This is typical of the SD I get:
That was with H4350 and 105 hybrids. RL-23 works well with 115 DTACs.
4 barrels (7, 2x 7.5 and an 8 twist) and all have given similar SDs, even in temperatures requiring gloves to shoot.
I've done load testing in temperatures below -10C preparing for matches in Florida and Texas. I was preparing for the Finale in January. Still SDs in the mid singles. Guys in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania shooting 6x47L too told me they had no issues in the cold either.
If I had to choose a twist, I would go with 7.5. 8 is ok with 105s, but I think the 115s like the faster twist.
If I had to choose a twist, I would go with 7.5. 8 is ok with 105s, but I think the 115s like the faster twist.
Would people typically use these heavy vld bullets for coyote hunting? I know coyotes aren't armor plated or anything, but I've always heard to not use match bullets on game? Would a 75gr vmax or similar not be a better choice, given the stated purpose is this build? Or is the fact that wind drift is lower on the heavy bullets the deciding factor?
If being used as a coyote caliber for average distances, a 75 or 87 vmax would probably be slightly more desirable as a projectile, but they OP said he wanted it for long range coyote hunting so the 105/ 115 class bullets will be better in the wind and will work just fine on coyotes.
However the 87 vmax is a great compromise between the light stuff and the heavies.
OP says 600yds on dogs and 1000yds on gong. Would you pick a vmax or vld matxh bullet given those two goals? (If you had to pick just one)
