what caliber for my new sheep rifle

What progress do I need to make?

You could start by admitting that you lied.:D

Since your memory is short

You posted

Bell didn't kill any Dalls

Then you posted

I haven't denied he shot Dalls

That was lie #1.

I didn't lie about anything,

That was lie#2

I haven't lied about anything and you know it

That was lie #3

What's the next step, starting another account to help back yourself up?

No,that would be like lying,that is more your style.I am not at all surprised that you would be the one to mention such things.
 
.......so bigbear...what have you decided for a cartridge?.....:D

a 280 Ackley might be a good idea......;)

I have a 7mm barrel in the lathe right now....all threaded and ready to chamber but I can't decide between 280AI and 284 Win.....it's a long action Howa 1500 which has a 3.5" mag box...I'm thinking the 284 wouldn't look out of place in that mag box......it's a 7-08 barrel so I can't make it a standard 280 unless I take about 3/8 to 1/2 inch off the length......
could make it a 7-08AI......could do a 7mm Rem Mag but then I'd have to open the bolt face and I don't really want to do that.....

..oh,...sorry for changing the subject....or did I?:D
 
.......so bigbear...what have you decided for a cartridge?.....:D

a 280 Ackley might be a good idea......;)

I have a 7mm barrel in the lathe right now....all threaded and ready to chamber but I can't decide between 280AI and 284 Win.....it's a long action Howa 1500 which has a 3.5" mag box...I'm thinking the 284 wouldn't look out of place in that mag box......it's a 7-08 barrel so I can't make it a standard 280 unless I take about 3/8 to 1/2 inch off the length......
could make it a 7-08AI......could do a 7mm Rem Mag but then I'd have to open the bolt face and I don't really want to do that.....

..oh,...sorry for changing the subject....or did I?:D

Oh, I believe that he already went with the 280AI on I think page six? It was so long ago I don't remember.;):D

And I would go with the .284, but I am a little prejudice.
060-2.jpg
 
You could start by admitting that you lied.:D

Since your memory is short

You posted



Then you posted



That was lie #1.



That was lie#2



That was lie #3



No,that would be like lying,that is more your style.I am not at all surprised that you would be the one to mention such things.

My only surprise is that you have no shame. I suppose that you are used to losing by now and really feel no defeat until the other person laughs and walks away from you with the same look of disappointment your father always had.
That really was lame, though entertaining for the brief moment. You're a sad little man, and I hope at your age you can still grow out of it.
Well, here I go:rolleyes:
 
My only surprise is that you have no shame.

Liars have no shame,and liars that don't admit their lies have even less.

What's the next step, starting another account to help back yourself up?

It was you that lied,and yes it was you that mentioned creating another username to provide supporting posts.It takes a loser to even think of doing such a thing.



By the way,I am still laughing,as you claimed to be earlier in this thread.:D.However,judging by the change in your wording,I doubt that you are still laughing.

Well, here I go
Perhaps you should have gone earlier,before you became so frustrated that you lied and thought of creating another username for support.
 
Actually, if we are going to calculate bore vs capacity, and 10grs difference and properly apply 1% in velocity for every 4% of increase of case volume and compare, the average would only be 80fps-ish between the two in a 24" tube, which means sweet #### all in the real world. .270, 280, 284, same pile my friend. We pick cartridges in this part of the world on plain old "I want". Please try not to make this a game of practicality.
O'Connor killed more sheep with his .270 than anyone packing a 280AI, so Jack wins, kapeesh?

Using your logic, since Bell killed more elephants with the .275 Rigby,than any other hunter killed with any other cartridge,the .275 Rigby must be the best elephant cartridge.Kapeesh?

O'Connor hunted his sheep under very similar circumstances to what we hunt them today. You could in no way say that about Bell and his Elephants.

This was the real point of the debate. You failed. Any points you made on this subject have held no water and you haven't even attempted to make statement that you were proven wrong. Real men can admit there wrong, but as Bartell said, your a whiny snot nosed child that needs it your way.

Nor did "Karimojo" have to leave civilization to go and shoot up to 25 elephants in one day. (pssst, the topic is sheep rifles though, and Bell didn't kill any Dalls)
And most of my Big Horn tags come over the counter still today. My point is, that arguing that the 280 AI is ballistically superior to the venerable .270 is comparing Grannies to Macintosh, cause they are both apples.
Personally, I don't know what I would choose between the two. Probably a .270 Gibbs:kickInTheNuts:.
For the record my new sheep rifle is the .284 with the groups I posted. And I wouldn't hunt an elephant with a 7mm, even if you put Rigby behind it.

Do you know that for a fact?After all,Bell did send some time in the Yukon both to hunt,and to take part in the Yukon Gold Rush.Can you be certain that he didn't shoot any Dalls during his stay in the Yukon?:rolleyes:

The highlighted portion is the big lie your whining about, and if you read it in context (comparing Bell to O'Connor), and what I wrote about Bell in the posts afterward, it is pretty easy to get the point. Have I lied before? Sure thing, but I was 17 and I really wanted in that bar.:rolleyes:
Doesn't say you have proof of him killing rams either, so who's lying now?

Exactly.

The 270 as a sheep rifle has validity today. The 7X57 as an Elephant rifle IMO has none. Possibly hundreds of .270's will hit the sheep mountains this fall, and I'd wager that no .275 will go after an Elephant.

You side stepped this one, cause as usual it beat you and you had nothing left to say. Another weak point made from your court.

Hey, post something about Karimojo shooting some sheep. He was an original gun/hunting writer and he wrote about shooting ducks out of the air with his .303 with bad ammo, so I am sure he would have scribed about his sheep hunting exploits too. If they are out there I would love to read them. Did he use his trusty 280 AI on any of those hunts (my turn to enter role eyes smiley now)?

Again you side stepped this one. No old books to take pictures of?

I didn't say that he did shoot Dalls,but you plainly stated that he did not shoot any Dalls.As such,yours is the only unproven statement.

As for his Yukon exploits,it was early in his life and little was written about these early exploits,other than the fact that he hunted there,and took part in the gold rush.

Again your calling me out as a liar, and you can't even prove he did. Who's playing with unproven statements now?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: How infantile.

I believe Bell did, because of the literature of Bell that I have read. I have read no direct mention of him shooting them, or caribou, or moose, but he hunted for subsistence in the north part of this continent for a short time and they likely crossed his path.

No, there is no barrel length on the site is there:rolleyes:. But there is in the manuals, as is quoted directly. Nosler used a 26" barrel for their manual testing (like I said a fairly recognizable person from Nosler even confirmed that) which happens to be the same results they posted up on their site. Imagine that. And at what point in time was RL22 the only powder for the job? RL19, VV165, H4831, IMR7828 are all good powders not to be ignored either. I used the fastest loads from the manual in my quote. I figured you'd want it that way to be subjective.
A more thorough examination of the two cartridges from the source you chose and another, the first being Nosler's ballistic lab was posted. I am so sorry that your one piece of data looks moot when all of the chips are on the table.

This is all of the posts with anything resembling those lies you keep extolling.
Your a person of little character SJ, and yes I am still laughing. This has been entertaining to say the least, though I wonder were my patience for it came from. Keep cutting out your little tidbits of my posts to prove my discrepancies all you like, and go ahead and fondle them saying "liar" at the top of your lungs if it feels better. You dodged all of the pertinent facts, though not very discreetly and really all you have come to now is name calling.
You were owned by every person on this thread you disagreed with, and if that is scalding you without lesson I am sure it will happen again.
There was really no sharpening of wits here for me so I would hope you benefited something of it all. Though I did get that laugh.;):D
 
this thread is chock full of awesomeness,,,

Impending Scottish jokes aside... sheep hunters are obviously passionate people, as it seems every sheep hunting related thread heads in this direction. :p

If anything I have learned more about the related cartridges then I ever wanted to know. :D
 
Real men can admit there wrong,

Real men can admit that they lied.
I challenge you to show me one place where I posted that Bell killed a single ram.You can't do that,because I never posted that he did.What I did post was that Bell lived in a place where he worked as a meat hunter and where Dall sheep were one of the common game species.I pointed out that Bell may very well have killed Dall sheep.Since I did not post that Bell did indeed kill Dalls,I have nothing to prove.

On the other hand you quite plainly posted

Bell didn't kill any Dalls

Which you haven't proven.However since nobody can prove that Bell did kill Dalls,that in itself is not a lie.

But then you foolishly posted"

I haven't denied he shot Dalls

Which quite plainly is a lie.Then you continued to deny lying,which only added more lies.The simple fact is that you got caught in a lie,and you won't admit it.

As for the ballistics debate,I posted links or pictures to support every one of my claims from,the barrel length used in Nosler load data,to velocities,to the velocity difference per inch of barrel.You may not like my evidence,but it is from accredited sources,and it does support my claims.On the other hand you did not post any links or pictures providing evidence to support your claims,although I suppose you could find some data somewhere that supports your claims.
As is the case with all ballistics discussions,there are many sources of data available,and they do vary considerably.It's up to the individual to examine the data and decide for themselves which data they deem credible.
You choose to believe what data you choose to believe is credible,and I will do the same.
As in most of these ballistic discussions,there are no clear winners.

But regardless of the outcome of the ballistics debate,you made statements that you now know are not true.Denying your earlier statement may have seemed like a good idea at the time,but lying because of your pride is never the right answer.

You bragged about laughing at my posts,you even told someone else not to interfere because you were enjoying the debate at the time.However,I guess it is very obvious that you are not laughing anymore. I doubt that it is the ballistics discussion that is bothering you now,rather it is being caught in a lie that could have easily been avoided.You made a slip in a post,and could have admitted your mistake,but instead you chose to deny the statement,even though it was obvious to everyone.Blame me if you choose,but it was your choice to lie rather than admit your mistake that brought things to this point.Yes I am stubborn,and when I see an obvious mistake,I do pounce on it,and I often don't let go until the person admits the mistake,but your denial only made things worse.
 
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re: starting another account to defend yourself, you replied

No,that would be like lying,that is more your style.I am not at all surprised that you would be the one to mention such things.

Are you saying that starting a new account is not your style and that would be lying ? On the Alberta outdoorsman forum, I have read several threads with these same antics under 'stubblejumper', but I see now you are posting under elkhunter11 as well, and who knows (or cares) who else..........
 
Are you saying that starting a new account is not your style and that would be lying ? On the Alberta outdoorsman forum, I have read several threads with these same antics under 'stubblejumper', but I see now you are posting under elkhunter11 as well, and who knows (or cares) who else..........

Are you insinuating that I have been posting as both Stubblejumper and Elkhunter11 at the same time on the AO forum?

That is easily disproven by checking the dates on the posts by both stubblejumper and elkhunter11.If you had bothered to check before making your accusation,you would have noticed that the first post by elkhunter11 never appeared until months after the last post was made by stubblejumper.In fact the join date listed for elkhunter11 is months after the last post was made by stubblejumper.

I used to post on AO as Stubblejumper,but I left the AO forum for a considerable time ,on my own accord I might add,and when I returned,I was not able to reregister as stubblejumper because apparently it was already in use,or so the system told me.As such,I had to choose another username.I have never had two usernames at once on any forum,and I always use stubblejumper if it is available.

But for the record,I do consider having multiple accounts in order to use one to back up another on the forums to be deceitful,and no different from lying.

Now would you care to make any other accusations at this time?Or perhaps you might want to do some more research to verify your information before posting any more accusations,like you should have done in the first place.
 
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Real men can admit that they lied.
I challenge you to show me one place where I posted that Bell killed a single ram.You can't do that,because I never posted that he did.What I did post was that Bell lived in a place where he worked as a meat hunter and where Dall sheep were one of the common game species.I pointed out that Bell may very well have killed Dall sheep.Since I did not post that Bell did indeed kill Dalls,I have nothing to prove.

On the other hand you quite plainly posted



Which you haven't proven.However since nobody can prove that Bell did kill Dalls,that in itself is not a lie.

But then you foolishly posted"



Which quite plainly is a lie.Then you continued to deny lying,which only added more lies.The simple fact is that you got caught in a lie,and you won't admit it.

As for the ballistics debate,I posted links or pictures to support every one of my claims from,the barrel length used in Nosler load data,to velocities,to the velocity difference per inch of barrel.You may not like my evidence,but it is from accredited sources,and it does support my claims.On the other hand you did not post any links or pictures providing evidence to support your claims,although I suppose you could find some data somewhere that supports your claims.
As is the case with all ballistics discussions,there are many sources of data available,and they do vary considerably.It's up to the individual to examine the data and decide for themselves which data they deem credible.
You choose to believe what data you choose to believe is credible,and I will do the same.
As in most of these ballistic discussions,there are no clear winners.

But regardless of the outcome of the ballistics debate,you made statements that you now know are not true.Denying your earlier statement may have seemed like a good idea at the time,but lying because of your pride is never the right answer.

You bragged about laughing at my posts,you even told someone else not to interfere because you were enjoying the debate at the time.However,I guess it is very obvious that you are not laughing anymore. I doubt that it is the ballistics discussion that is bothering you now,rather it is being caught in a lie that could have easily been avoided.You made a slip in a post,and could have admitted your mistake,but instead you chose to deny the statement,even though it was obvious to everyone.Blame me if you choose,but it was your choice to lie rather than admit your mistake that brought things to this point.Yes I am stubborn,and when I see an obvious mistake,I do pounce on it,and I often don't let go until the person admits the mistake,but your denial only made things worse.

Are you insinuating that I have been posting as both Stubblejumper and Elkhunter11 at the same time on the AO forum?

Nice try,but that is easily disproven by checking the dates on the posts by both stubblejumper and elkhunter11.If you had bothered to check before making your silly accusation,you would have noticed that elkhunter11 never posted his first post until after the last post made by stubblejumper.

I used to post on AO as Stubblejumper,but I left the AO forum ,on my own accord I might add,and when I returned,I was not able to reregister as stubblejumper because apparently it was already in use,or so the system told me.As such,I had to choose another username.I have never had two usernames at once on any forum,and I always use stubblejumper if it is available.

But for the record,I do consider having multiple accounts in order to use one to back up another on the forums to be deceitful,and no different from lying.

Now would you care to make any other accusations at this time?Or perhaps you might want to do some more research to verify your information before posting any more accusations,like you should have done in the first place.

You know it's funny because by the looks of it your as inconsistent as I have called you on. What is good for the goose is good for the gander, and you seem to excuse yourself for the same things you accuse others for. I posted my "grand deceitful statements" for all to see plain as day. Because anyone with a modicum of intelligence can easily construe what I was getting at. I also explained to SakoAlberta that I am quite well read on Bell and did know that he was hunting in the Yukon. I already did what you are insinuating, but your reading comprehension comes into question again.

Your not so much stubborn as ignorant, and I'm not the only one that called you on this in the thread, I didn't lie, and that is why not one of the other participants has sat in your camp and called me on it.

You have been soundly trounced on this subject and you still hate to admit it. That is why your still trying to produce your smoke show of calling me a liar. It crossed the line of pathetic on your part awhile ago, and I am laughing still, as your goat has been dragged for miles now.

You have proved that I have lied about nothing, as even if I said I firmly believe Bell didn't kill any Dalls, you have admitted you can't prove it. How is that a lie? If you were to say you believe there is intelligent life on other planets in the universe, I can't call you a liar, as I can't prove there isn't.
Ballistically, if you believe that it wasn't significantly proven that your statement (the only really absolute made) that the 280AI will produce 150fps more velocity than the 270 with projectiles 10grs heavier is false, your daft.

Just as a side note, I was into my old books in Calgary today and dug out my old #4 and #5 Nosler manuals. It's funny, cause I did find that the 280AI barrels in both are 24" Wiseman's. I gues Jr. wasn't involved in those manuals, eh?:p
But funny thing is you have a Number 4 manual, and in that manual, the difference between the top .270 velocity with a 130 grain bullet and the top speed with the 280AI and 140 grain is roughly 50fps. Didn't you claim to use all resources at hand to come to your conclusions? LIAR, LIAR. Sorry, it's contagious.:D
 
even if I said I firmly believe Bell didn't kill any Dalls, you have admitted you can't prove it.How is that a lie?

That is not a lie


However after posting

Bell didn't kill any Dalls

And there was no " I firmly believe" before those words in your original statement.

You then posted

I haven't denied he shot Dalls

That was lie #1,the first lie that started the string of lies,the lie that you won't admit posting.Of course you denied that he shot Dalls,you posted so very plainly.

Then you posted

I didn't lie about anything

That was lie#2

Then you posted

I haven't lied about anything and you know it
That was lie #3

Then you posted

I didn't lie,

That was lie #4

You have proved that I have lied about nothing

I didn't have to prove that you lied,you so plainly proved it yourself for all to see.

and that is why not one of the other participants has sat in your camp and called me on it.

YOU are the only one that has denied that you lied.Not one other person has posted that you didn't lie.Some people have posted support posts,but not one has posted that you did not lie.The forum members are not stupid,some may want to support you,but they aren't willing to openly lie to do so.

If you were to say you believe there is intelligent life on other planets in the universe, I can't call you a liar, as I can't prove there isn't.

True,but if a person openly stated that there was intelligent life on other planets in the universe,then later denied saying it,he would be a liar.Whether there is or is not intelligent life on other planets in the universe would be irrelevant to him being a liar.The fact that he denied making a statement that he actually made,would make him a liar.

Just as a side note, I was into my old books in Calgary today and dug out my old #4 and #5 Nosler manuals. It's funny, cause I did find that the 280AI barrels in both are 24" Wiseman's. I gues Jr. wasn't involved in those manuals, eh?

Tell me something that I don't know.My picture was from the #4 manual.As I have been maintaining all along,Nosler did use 24" barrels for some of their 280AI testing.Now even you have admitted that,which conclusively proves your statement about Nosler using the same 26" barrel for all of their 280AI testing to be incorrect.You really are confused,since you are now proving yourself wrong.

Ballistically, if you believe that it wasn't significantly proven that your statement (the only really absolute made) that the 280AI will produce 150fps more velocity than the 270 with projectiles 10grs heavier is false, your daft.

On the contrary,I posted a link to the Nosler site which proves my point if you choose to believe the Nosler numbers.On the other hand,you have only provided your word,and no actual proof of any kind.No links,no pictures,no data of any kind.

Didn't you claim to use all resources at hand to come to your conclusions?

I posted that I used data from the Nosler site which I did.You have yet to prove otherwise.

I am laughing still,

I am laughing harder than you,since you don't seem to comprehend that denying that you posted a statement that everyone can plainly see that you posted,makes you a liar.That is truly funny.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, and you seem to excuse yourself for the same things you accuse others for.

The difference is,that simply checking the post dates on the AO forums proves me completely innocent of the accusations made by 17 ultra mag.

On the other hand,you yourself posted your lies right here on the forums.You proved yourself a liar for everyone to see.
 
That is not a lie


However after posting



And there was no " I firmly believe" before those words in your original statement.

You then posted



That was lie #1,the first lie that started the string of lies,the lie that you won't admit posting.Of course you denied that he shot Dalls,you posted so very plainly.

Then you posted



That was lie#2

Then you posted


That was lie #3

Then you posted



That was lie #4



I didn't have to prove that you lied,you so plainly proved it yourself for all to see.



YOU are the only one that has denied that you lied.Not one other person has posted that you didn't lie.Some people have posted support posts,but not one has posted that you did not lie.The forum members are not stupid,some may want to support you,but they aren't willing to openly lie to do so.



True,but if a person openly stated that there was intelligent life on other planets in the universe,then later denied saying it,he would be a liar.Whether there is or is not intelligent life on other planets in the universe would be irrelevant to him being a liar.The fact that he denied making a statement that he actually made,would make him a liar.



Tell me something that I don't know.My picture was from the #4 manual.As I have been maintaining all along,Nosler did use 24" barrels for some of their 280AI testing.Now even you have admitted that,which conclusively proves your statement about Nosler using the same 26" barrel for all of their 280AI testing to be incorrect.You really are confused,since you are now proving yourself wrong.



On the contrary,I posted a link to the Nosler site which proves my point if you choose to believe the Nosler numbers.On the other hand,you have only provided your word,and no actual proof of any kind.No links,no pictures,no data of any kind.



I posted that I used data from the Nosler site which I did.You have yet to prove otherwise.



I am laughing harder than you,since you don't seem to comprehend that denying that you posted a statement that everyone can plainly see that you posted,makes you a liar.That is truly funny.

And all of this plainly proves that you can't discern, comprehend, or calculate. Still laughing along with every one else. I'm moving into short form now, as it has become apparent that when someone offers a sound retort or explanation, you ignore it and keep playing your broken record. Looking forward to another lame "LIAR #1, 2, 3, 4" post. Why stop there, or is 5, 6, 7 in the next #### and Jane reader?
 
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