- Location
- British Canuckistan
what about the .45-70?
what do you think is the most versatile cartridge ever made?
- Thread starter Mr. Friendly
- Start date
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Should note this discussion isn’t about bear defence, it’s about actually killing bears amongst other species purposefully. Not as a side effect of being in the woods, if required; it’s seeking out the grizzlies and others rather than fearing them. Kinda removes the hypothetical aspects of killing bears efficiently when you’re actually going to do it.
It’s about one cartridge for hunting every big game animal in North America with the minimum recoil. So I think you’re after some other vein of discussion more easily found in the forums where they like to wear black.
Who’s on first?
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
In 0festivus’ defence if I was hunting imaginary threats and vehicles purposefully and I’d probably opt for his suggestions. Oddly enough if you cruise this site off our little reservation there’s a lot of that thinking out there.
@chuck nelson
Chuck, can we move on to the topic of this thread ....please?
If I have ever seen a Grizz or not ... doesn't matter ....
And, I already answered your question somewhere in this thread .... I guess you missed it ....
How about you guys resurrect one of the older bear defense threads or create a new one and continue your discussion there?
How does that sound?
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@Ardent
My input/comments about anti material cartridges and anti wasp ammunition were sarcastic.
This thread has turned into a bear defense thread .... and that is sad to see.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
So... I’ll take that as a no... And that’s fine.
Oddly enough Chuck’s question is on topic for our discussion. Your confused interpretation of the subject and airball lampooning attempt to segue into vehicular defence, is what’s gone awkwardly off topic.
Naw, try to actually read it. It’s about hunting everything on the continent, and naturally the most difficult hunts are the ones discussion focuses on, as anything works for deer and moose.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
the .338 Federal was mentioned but not discussed. thoughts?
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Inferior to the .308 in just about every aspect, and generally just an odd duck of a cartridge I still struggle to find a good reason for. Trajectory is worse, it throws 10grs more bullet 100-150fps faster but with a worse BC which negates the touch of speed. Overall a heavily “to be different” cartridge and if that’s your jam, cool. I have a couple of those.
None, and you will notice that all my posts refer to black bears, not grizzlies. But again, all the people I know that had near-death encounters with wildlife all miraculously survived without even a scar. Now, several people I know had to dispose of nuisance bears trying to get into RV's, houses or cottages, but actual attacks? Never personally met anyone that had been attacked.
Please note, though, that never do I state bears are not or cannot be deadly. I simply asked the question - how many people does anyone here personally know that have suffered a bear attack (black, grizzly or polar) and have scars to show for it. Fairly simple question that should get a straightforward answer.
Now, Gatehouse, in his typical rectal style, states that he knows several people that have been attacked and suffered injuries. SO far, he is the only one, and based on past history, I strongly doubt that there is a Gospel according to Saint Gatehouse, so unless I am given facts to back up his claim, I will put it in the "highly doubtful" column, but not the "Fertilizer" column just yet.
Now, if bears (or any other wildlife, for that matter) pose such a real and credible threat that people should not be wandering into our forests unless armed to the teeth, surely to God it should be a fairly simple matter to find hard data to back it up. I have to admit that it is not something I spent a lot of time researching, but here in Ontario and Quebec, every animal attack gets a lot of press, and it is something that is reported maybe once or twice a year.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
My head guide was run over by a sow grizzly he had to kill that was after his client. My boss in the bush flying day job and his passenger were both hospitalised in a bear attack five years ago (passenger was attacked, he sprayed the bear which then attacked him, but they both survived and likely as a result of spray).
A coworker shot a grizzly off another coworker fifteen years ago at the same day job with a .303. An acquaintance from the guiding industry was killed a few years ago by a Grizz here in BC. People I have an even lesser connection with (Phil Shoemaker for instance, who I’ve only met once) have even more exciting stories.
Do I run around paranoid of feel bears are out to get me? No, it’s just one of the lesser job hazards. I also believe in exposure. 99.99999% of North Americans are never near a Grizzly bear in the wild, and a few here are daily during bear season. The odds of an untoward encounter with a Grizz increase drastically with your exposure to them.
A good set of outerwear will do more for your survival in the wilderness than any gun. This said I still like guns and did a lot of grizzly hunting, and I don’t think I’m silly for considering bears. Myself personally only ever had one truly unnerving bear encounter at close range and embarrassed to admit it was a black bear, I had a tag and shot the bear. The government feels the risk is good enough to let us carry handguns, and that’s a hard thing to convince the government of.
Probably would have gotten away with it unarmed or with spray but I’d rather not try. Have had more “exciting” encounters I don’t credit as near misses, grizzlies in camp at night etc, that a good gun made me feel better about. And so what?
Let’s get back to hunting animals rather than defending against them lest festivus feel he somehow made a difference. A 7 Mag will do nicely.
A coworker shot a grizzly off another coworker fifteen years ago at the same day job with a .303. An acquaintance from the guiding industry was killed a few years ago by a Grizz here in BC. People I have an even lesser connection with (Phil Shoemaker for instance, who I’ve only met once) have even more exciting stories.
Do I run around paranoid of feel bears are out to get me? No, it’s just one of the lesser job hazards. I also believe in exposure. 99.99999% of North Americans are never near a Grizzly bear in the wild, and a few here are daily during bear season. The odds of an untoward encounter with a Grizz increase drastically with your exposure to them.
A good set of outerwear will do more for your survival in the wilderness than any gun. This said I still like guns and did a lot of grizzly hunting, and I don’t think I’m silly for considering bears. Myself personally only ever had one truly unnerving bear encounter at close range and embarrassed to admit it was a black bear, I had a tag and shot the bear. The government feels the risk is good enough to let us carry handguns, and that’s a hard thing to convince the government of.
Probably would have gotten away with it unarmed or with spray but I’d rather not try. Have had more “exciting” encounters I don’t credit as near misses, grizzlies in camp at night etc, that a good gun made me feel better about. And so what?
Let’s get back to hunting animals rather than defending against them lest festivus feel he somehow made a difference. A 7 Mag will do nicely.
You have no idea, do you.
Had a grizz kill the neighbors 2000lb bull last fall. Then got a cow of ours. Ran into several grizz this spring. Have pictures of one. Saw more last spring three within bow range. My hunting partner shot an elk this fall. Within five minutes he had a grizzly wanting that elk. He and I both have shot dozens of black bear. They are not remotely the same.
dgradinaru
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- British Columbia
Even though i voted 30-06 which is an excellent cartridge i tend to keep using my 8x57 Mauser for all around hunting. Good killing power and very manageable recoil. If i want a flat shooting load the 160gr TTSX @ 2900 fps and 170Gr Hornady SST @ 2850 fps could handle mountain terrain pretty well. When in dense brush and shots up to 300 yards a heavy hitter like the 200gr partition/accubond @2600fps could be used with out issues.
Same could be said of the 308 Win and 30-06. Choose your flavor and enjoy.
Speaking of bears and cats i have never felt under gunned using my 8MM Mauser
and a few deer!
Grouse and small game? Not a problem
Same could be said of the 308 Win and 30-06. Choose your flavor and enjoy.
Speaking of bears and cats i have never felt under gunned using my 8MM Mauser
and a few deer!
Grouse and small game? Not a problem
Since this has taken a hard left...an attempt will be made to redirect the conversation again.
Will all those in favour of a 30-06 please explain, in detail, how it is "better" than a 300WM with regards to versatility. Cartridge versatility as in the title of this thread, after all. Exclude the romance, and the first person that uses the word "venerable" should be hit upside the head with a chunk of wet moose hide, or better yet, a deer hoof...still attached to the lower leg.
The argument is straight forward. Both cases require long actions. All of the bullet weights are available. The 300WM can easily be loaded down to 30-06, but the 30-06 can't be loaded up to 300WM. So, is it that 30-06 guys lack the education, knowledge, and understanding to select anything better? Is it because their pa's shot it, and that's good enough? Is it because Phil Shoemaker, who has shot some bears with one, among other chamberings, is on a pedestal next to Jesus and Smith (not a slam against Phil, BTW, but when a feller's name gets used without his knowledge to further an argument, or agenda, it is in poor form, right?)? There aren't sig lines referring to the dozens of other cases he's used...so just wondering! Is it because it's available in specific model manufactured in places such as Portugal, a known mecca of precision machining, and Japan, among others? Is it like ordering a beer, and not knowing any better, and just saying "Canadian". There are more, but those should suffice.
Discuss away...
Back on track now?
R.
Will all those in favour of a 30-06 please explain, in detail, how it is "better" than a 300WM with regards to versatility. Cartridge versatility as in the title of this thread, after all. Exclude the romance, and the first person that uses the word "venerable" should be hit upside the head with a chunk of wet moose hide, or better yet, a deer hoof...still attached to the lower leg.
The argument is straight forward. Both cases require long actions. All of the bullet weights are available. The 300WM can easily be loaded down to 30-06, but the 30-06 can't be loaded up to 300WM. So, is it that 30-06 guys lack the education, knowledge, and understanding to select anything better? Is it because their pa's shot it, and that's good enough? Is it because Phil Shoemaker, who has shot some bears with one, among other chamberings, is on a pedestal next to Jesus and Smith (not a slam against Phil, BTW, but when a feller's name gets used without his knowledge to further an argument, or agenda, it is in poor form, right?)? There aren't sig lines referring to the dozens of other cases he's used...so just wondering! Is it because it's available in specific model manufactured in places such as Portugal, a known mecca of precision machining, and Japan, among others? Is it like ordering a beer, and not knowing any better, and just saying "Canadian". There are more, but those should suffice.
Discuss away...
Back on track now?
R.
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Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Recoil.
Personally I’m very happy with the .300 and consider it the best BC all round, round, but in all honesty most casual shooters aren’t interested in adapting to the recoil. For clients I’d rather have them use a .30-06 they shoot both eyes open and don’t blink than the new .300 they wince at. Many here will giggle at a .300 being called a kicker in the grand scheme, but the reality is for many it is. Especially in light rifles you don’t mind backpacking over the mountains for two weeks.
So, in summary the .30-06 is better in a 6 1/2lb rifle for the mountains than a 9lb .300. 7 Mag is pretty similar to -06 for recoil with more bark. It’s on the cusp of too much for many, but often just comes under the fear of gun limit- why I chose it for this thread once its bullet weight range and trajectory are considered.
Personally I’m very happy with the .300 and consider it the best BC all round, round, but in all honesty most casual shooters aren’t interested in adapting to the recoil. For clients I’d rather have them use a .30-06 they shoot both eyes open and don’t blink than the new .300 they wince at. Many here will giggle at a .300 being called a kicker in the grand scheme, but the reality is for many it is. Especially in light rifles you don’t mind backpacking over the mountains for two weeks.
So, in summary the .30-06 is better in a 6 1/2lb rifle for the mountains than a 9lb .300. 7 Mag is pretty similar to -06 for recoil with more bark. It’s on the cusp of too much for many, but often just comes under the fear of gun limit- why I chose it for this thread once its bullet weight range and trajectory are considered.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Even though i voted 30-06 which is an excellent cartridge i tend to keep using my 8x57 Mauser for all around hunting. Good killing power and very manageable recoil. If i want a flat shooting load the 160gr TTSX @ 2900 fps and 170Gr Hornady SST @ 2850 fps could handle mountain terrain pretty well. When in dense brush and shots up to 300 yards a heavy hitter like the 200gr partition/accubond @2600fps could be used with out issues.
Same could be said of the 308 Win and 30-06. Choose your flavor and enjoy.
Speaking of bears and cats i have never felt under gunned using my 8MM Mauser
and a few deer!
Grouse and small game? Not a problem
That’s quote worthy on the same page. Nice. Can’t argue with done that.
Recoil.
Personally I’m very happy with the .300 but in all honesty most casual shooters aren’t interested in adapting to the recoil. For clients I’d rather have them use a .30-06 they shoot both eyes open and don’t blink than the new .300 they wince at. Many here will giggle at a .300 being called a kicker in the grand scheme, but the reality is for many it is. Especially in light rifles you don’t mind backpacking over the mountains for two weeks.
So, in summary the .30-06 is better in a 6 1/2lb rifle for the mountains than a 9lb .300. 7 Mag is pretty similar to -06 for recoil with more bark. It’s on the cusp of too much for many, but often just comes under the fear of gun limit- why I chose it for this thread once its bullet weight range and trajectory are considered.
Recoil...
The 300WM can easily be loaded down to the same, or lesser recoil than the 30-06. There are reduced recoil factory loads available as well.
The 300WM is well known for it's recoil characteristics, for sure. Zero argument.
But with regards to versatility, and the ability to lessen that recoil?
R.
Recoil in a 7.5 lb rifle is fairly significant in a 300 Win Mag. Yes you can load it down, but you do it at the expense of Mag box space and if you are going to load it down use a 30-06. I guess my answer is, I’ve shot lots of game with both and I prefer the 30-06. I prefer the big 7’s if I’m going to go to a belted magnum.
