what is the different ???

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That is true to the original post. I went off in a different direction when 'Amphibious" said, "barrel length has nothing to do with pattern"

Ah, I kind of thought as much. I'd agree with you on shorties versus 18" or longer barrels. In fact, back in October I was shooting my Marine Magnum next to my other 870 with a 14" barrel on it. Both were zeroed to 50m,.but at 100 m slugs from the 14" were dropping off the paper, whereas the 18" bbl on the 870MM were about 8" higher.
 
short barrels (< 18") are not much slower than a longer-barrel. PE Islander did some chronographing of some trap loads http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224048&highlight=short+shotgun+velocity

I patterend my 12" 870 against an older long barrel shotgun with a similar choke. The pattern was very similar, and I would assume that a majority of the difference would be attributed to the different shotgun design and the slight loss in MV with the shorter barrel. Ive shot a few ducks with my 12" barrel and it drops them fine. The swing takes some getting used to, but after a few rounds of clays it is manageable.

For a bush gun, I think a 12" barrel with screw-in chokes is ideal. I can put slugs, lead shot and steel shot in my pocket and, with one gun, hunt a variety of animals from grouse to deer. I find myself grabbing my grizzly more than any rifle now when I head out hunting, especially on a longer walk through the bush.
 
Yes it does. It burns more powder. Therefore more velocity.

a barrel burns more powder? the barrel length has little to do with the range, but rather the burn rates of the powder and the chambering. yes the longer barrel does have a potential to hold on to the expanding gasses longer and the resultant aid in acceleration to the projectile. but most of the useable powder is burned up in the first foot or so of a barrel. the flash you see from unburned power out the muzzle is wasted. inefficient. do a charge volume vs. velocity study from various cartridges in any reloading manual. but this lesson is getting way off topic and my beer needs refilling.

chrony a 16" .22LR barrel against a 20" one. I think you'll be suprised to find the longer barrel is slower ;)
 
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if you could find two perfectly matched barrels (bore, forcing cone, and choke constriction) and identical loads then yes. the constriction would be the same, thus pattern would be the same. there may be subtle differences due to velocity, but you'd never notice them.

the pattern is a "cone" of pellets expanding outward from the muzzle. providing muzzle distance to target was identical, the paterns would be Identical.

does a 30" rifle barrel shoot farther then a 20" rifle barrel? :)


if someone wants to send me a 12" barrel threaded for rem chokes I'd be happy to test this theory, off work for a bit and have nothing but time to kill ;)
Yes a 30" rifle barrel will shoot farther than 20" rifle barrel, it burns more powder which equals more velocity.
 
Well - 65 fps means 10% more energy...

to many variables for that alone to be a statement of fact.

Yes a 30" rifle barrel will shoot farther than 20" rifle barrel, it burns more powder which equals more velocity.


only if there is more powder to be burned. again: BARRELS DO NOT BURN POWDER. they are a pipe :D with funky groves and lands.

well now lets take a 20" .300 magnum and a 30" .223. does the 30" still burn more powder? ;)
 
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to many variables for that alone to be a statement of fact.




only if there is more powder to be burned. again: BARRELS DO NOT BURN POWDER. they are a pipe :D with funky groves and lands. the end.

You are right :rolleyes:. Barrels do not burn powder. But the more barrel there is the more powder is burned..
 
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well now lets take a 20" .300 magnum and a 30" .223. does the 30" still burn more powder? ;)

The 300 obviously burns more powder, but the 30 inch barrel burns a higher percentage of powder;) I also think that the more burn right at the muzzle, will reduce the pattern density. There is not much noticable difference between 28 and 26 inches, but there is a lot of difference between 6 inches and 4 inches:D
 
Barrel length, accuracy and ballistics

It is worth mentioning that a longer barrel is not inherently more accurate than a short barrel. Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length. However, a longer barrel is generally better in terms of practical accuracy because a longer and therefore heavier barrel (within reason) is easier to hold relatively steady from unsupported positions; thus it is easier to shoot a long barreled rifle accurately.

The length of the rifle barrel has a direct influence on the velocity obtained from the cartridge for which it is chambered. Ballistically, longer is usually better. But for carrying, handling, and maneuvering in close quarters (like thick brush) shorter is usually better. So some sort of compromise must be reached.

Very long 27-30 inch barrels are seldom seen these days on repeating hunting rifles, although they are still occasionally found on single shot hunting rifles and target rifles. The longest barrels usually seen on hunting rifles today are 26 inches in length.

26 inch barrels are usually found on rifles chambered for high velocity magnum cartridges. A long barrel is required to burn the large amounts of slow burning powder used in this type of cartridge. Unfortunately, most repeating rifles with 26 inch barrels balance too far forward--they are muzzle heavy, and slow to swing. The long barrel seems to hang up on every limb and outcropping of rock in the area, and a hunting rifle so equipped can be very awkward carry in steep terrain.

For this reason, many magnum rifles now come with 24 inch barrels, which sacrifice some of the magnum's velocity. 24 inches is about the minimum barrel length practical for most magnum cartridges. Cut a magnum's barrel down to 22 inches and the muzzle blast and flash become intimidating. Also, magnum cartridges like the .264 Win. or 7mm Rem. lose so much velocity in a 22 inch barrel that they show little ballistic advantage over standard calibers like the .270 or .280.

The typical barrel length for a repeating hunting rifle chambered for standard high intensity cartridges, like the .243, .270, .308, or .30-06, is 22-24 inches, with 22 inches being the more common length today. This is a useful all-around barrel length for these cartridges. Such cartridges will attain higher velocity in a 24 inch barrel, but the velocity loss in a 22 inch barrel is not extreme, and a rifle with a barrel of this length usually balances and swings well.

Cartridges with smaller cases that burn less powder, like all .22 Rimfire cartridges, the .250-300, .30-30, .300 Sav., and .35 Rem., do well in 20-22 inch barrels. The very popular carbine versions of classic lever action rifles like the Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 usually come with 20 inch barrels. These short rifles ride well in a saddle scabbard, are easy to carry in rugged terrain, and handle fast in close quarters. Because they are light rifles, they balance well with a 20 inch barrel. Muzzle blast from these cartridges in a 20 inch barrel is less severe than from the larger high intensity cartridges in a 22 inch barrel.

Combine a high intensity cartridge with a 20 inch barrel, however, and the velocity drops noticeably while the blast becomes annoying. Still, a lightweight rifle with a 20 inch barrel, chambered for short action cartridges like the .243, .260 Rem, or 7mm-08, makes a very effective mountain rifle. These cartridges retain enough velocity in a 20 inch barrel to handle the occasional long shot mountain hunting presents, and the stubby barrel is less likely than longer tubes to get hung up on overhanging ledges, rocky outcroppings, and so forth.

To my mind it is hard to justify barrels much shorter than 20 inches for any purpose. I have owned rifles with 18.5 inch barrels, and in every case I wished that they had come with a 20 inch barrel. Very short barrels of standard contour (not bull barrels) tend to make the rifle muzzle light and unsteady to hold and swing. I like a rifle to balance between my hands, not toward the butt. Even .22 rimfire rifles balance better with 20-22 inch barrels, although in this instance the longer barrel has no ballistic advantage, since the .22 LR cartridge burns all of of its powder in about 16 inches. Very short barrels also increase the muzzle blast from high intensity cartridges to very annoying levels, and the velocity loss is excessive.

Velocity loss (or gain)

It is worth noting that the velocity figures published in ammunition brochures and reloading manuals are sometimes taken in barrels different in length from those supplied on many rifles. I have seen various estimates of how much velocity is lost (or gained) when a barrel is not the same length as the test barrel in which a cartridge was chronographed. Here are some of them.

The 2001 Edition of the Shooter's Bible states, in the introduction to the Centerfire Rifle Ballistics section, "Barrel length affects velocity, and at various rates depending on the load. As a rule, figure 50 fps per inch of barrel, plus or minus, if your barrel is longer or shorter than 22 inches." But they do not say what category of load to which this 50 fps average pertains.

Jack O'Connor wrote in The Rifle Book that, "The barrel shorter than standard has a velocity loss which averages about 25 foot-seconds for every inch cut off the barrel. Likewise, there is a velocity gain with a longer barrel." He went on to illustrate this using a .30-06 rifle shooting 180 grain bullets as an example, so his estimate was obviously for rifles in that general performance class.

Other authorities have tried to take into account the different velocity ranges within which modern cartridges operate. The Remington Catalog 2003 includes a "Centerfire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length" table that shows the following velocity changes for barrels shorter or longer than the test barrel length:

MV 2000-2500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
MV 2500-3000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
MV 3000-3500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
MV 3500-4000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.


The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2001-2500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2501-3000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3001-3500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3501-4000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 43rd edition of the Lyman reloading Handbook gave some concrete examples of velocity loss for specific calibers and loads. The Lyman technicians chronographed some high velocity cartridges in rifles with barrels ranging in length from 26" down to 22" with the following results:

The average loss for the .243 Win./100 grain bullet was 29 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .264 Win. Mag./140 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 H&H Mag./220 grain bullet was 25 fps per inch.

For standard high intensity cartridges in the same test, the Lyman technicians chronographed the cartridges in barrel lengths ranging in length from 24" down to 20" with the following results:

The average loss for the .270 Win./130 grain bullet was 37 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .270 Win./150 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 Sav./180 grain bullet was 17 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .30-06/180 grain bullet was 15 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .35 Rem./200 grain bullet was 11 fps per inch.

After a bunch of disclaimers, the Lyman people concluded, "The rule of thumb is that high speed, high pressure cartridges shed more speed in short barrels than do the low speed, large bore types." It's funny, but that is what I had suspected all along!
CHUCK HAWKS
 
Barrel length, accuracy and ballistics

It is worth mentioning that a longer barrel is not inherently more accurate than a short barrel. Intrinsic accuracy is a matter of quality, not length. However, a longer barrel is generally better in terms of practical accuracy because a longer and therefore heavier barrel (within reason) is easier to hold relatively steady from unsupported positions; thus it is easier to shoot a long barreled rifle accurately.

The length of the rifle barrel has a direct influence on the velocity obtained from the cartridge for which it is chambered. Ballistically, longer is usually better. But for carrying, handling, and maneuvering in close quarters (like thick brush) shorter is usually better. So some sort of compromise must be reached.

Very long 27-30 inch barrels are seldom seen these days on repeating hunting rifles, although they are still occasionally found on single shot hunting rifles and target rifles. The longest barrels usually seen on hunting rifles today are 26 inches in length.

26 inch barrels are usually found on rifles chambered for high velocity magnum cartridges. A long barrel is required to burn the large amounts of slow burning powder used in this type of cartridge. Unfortunately, most repeating rifles with 26 inch barrels balance too far forward--they are muzzle heavy, and slow to swing. The long barrel seems to hang up on every limb and outcropping of rock in the area, and a hunting rifle so equipped can be very awkward carry in steep terrain.

For this reason, many magnum rifles now come with 24 inch barrels, which sacrifice some of the magnum's velocity. 24 inches is about the minimum barrel length practical for most magnum cartridges. Cut a magnum's barrel down to 22 inches and the muzzle blast and flash become intimidating. Also, magnum cartridges like the .264 Win. or 7mm Rem. lose so much velocity in a 22 inch barrel that they show little ballistic advantage over standard calibers like the .270 or .280.

The typical barrel length for a repeating hunting rifle chambered for standard high intensity cartridges, like the .243, .270, .308, or .30-06, is 22-24 inches, with 22 inches being the more common length today. This is a useful all-around barrel length for these cartridges. Such cartridges will attain higher velocity in a 24 inch barrel, but the velocity loss in a 22 inch barrel is not extreme, and a rifle with a barrel of this length usually balances and swings well.

Cartridges with smaller cases that burn less powder, like all .22 Rimfire cartridges, the .250-300, .30-30, .300 Sav., and .35 Rem., do well in 20-22 inch barrels. The very popular carbine versions of classic lever action rifles like the Winchester 94 and Marlin 336 usually come with 20 inch barrels. These short rifles ride well in a saddle scabbard, are easy to carry in rugged terrain, and handle fast in close quarters. Because they are light rifles, they balance well with a 20 inch barrel. Muzzle blast from these cartridges in a 20 inch barrel is less severe than from the larger high intensity cartridges in a 22 inch barrel.

Combine a high intensity cartridge with a 20 inch barrel, however, and the velocity drops noticeably while the blast becomes annoying. Still, a lightweight rifle with a 20 inch barrel, chambered for short action cartridges like the .243, .260 Rem, or 7mm-08, makes a very effective mountain rifle. These cartridges retain enough velocity in a 20 inch barrel to handle the occasional long shot mountain hunting presents, and the stubby barrel is less likely than longer tubes to get hung up on overhanging ledges, rocky outcroppings, and so forth.

To my mind it is hard to justify barrels much shorter than 20 inches for any purpose. I have owned rifles with 18.5 inch barrels, and in every case I wished that they had come with a 20 inch barrel. Very short barrels of standard contour (not bull barrels) tend to make the rifle muzzle light and unsteady to hold and swing. I like a rifle to balance between my hands, not toward the butt. Even .22 rimfire rifles balance better with 20-22 inch barrels, although in this instance the longer barrel has no ballistic advantage, since the .22 LR cartridge burns all of of its powder in about 16 inches. Very short barrels also increase the muzzle blast from high intensity cartridges to very annoying levels, and the velocity loss is excessive.

Velocity loss (or gain)

It is worth noting that the velocity figures published in ammunition brochures and reloading manuals are sometimes taken in barrels different in length from those supplied on many rifles. I have seen various estimates of how much velocity is lost (or gained) when a barrel is not the same length as the test barrel in which a cartridge was chronographed. Here are some of them.

The 2001 Edition of the Shooter's Bible states, in the introduction to the Centerfire Rifle Ballistics section, "Barrel length affects velocity, and at various rates depending on the load. As a rule, figure 50 fps per inch of barrel, plus or minus, if your barrel is longer or shorter than 22 inches." But they do not say what category of load to which this 50 fps average pertains.

Jack O'Connor wrote in The Rifle Book that, "The barrel shorter than standard has a velocity loss which averages about 25 foot-seconds for every inch cut off the barrel. Likewise, there is a velocity gain with a longer barrel." He went on to illustrate this using a .30-06 rifle shooting 180 grain bullets as an example, so his estimate was obviously for rifles in that general performance class.

Other authorities have tried to take into account the different velocity ranges within which modern cartridges operate. The Remington Catalog 2003 includes a "Centerfire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length" table that shows the following velocity changes for barrels shorter or longer than the test barrel length:

MV 2000-2500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
MV 2500-3000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
MV 3000-3500 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
MV 3500-4000 fps, the approximate change in MV per 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.


The 45th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook also has a table showing Center Fire Rifle Velocity Vs. Barrel Length. Their figures apply to barrels between 20 and 26 inches in length and agree with the Remington figures. The Lyman table shows the following approximate velocity changes:

For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 1000-2000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 5 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2001-2500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 10 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2501-3000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 20 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3001-3500 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 30 fps.
For rifles with muzzle velocities in the 3501-4000 fps range, the change in velocity for each 1" change in barrel length is 40 fps.

The 43rd edition of the Lyman reloading Handbook gave some concrete examples of velocity loss for specific calibers and loads. The Lyman technicians chronographed some high velocity cartridges in rifles with barrels ranging in length from 26" down to 22" with the following results:

The average loss for the .243 Win./100 grain bullet was 29 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .264 Win. Mag./140 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 H&H Mag./220 grain bullet was 25 fps per inch.

For standard high intensity cartridges in the same test, the Lyman technicians chronographed the cartridges in barrel lengths ranging in length from 24" down to 20" with the following results:

The average loss for the .270 Win./130 grain bullet was 37 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .270 Win./150 grain bullet was 32 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .300 Sav./180 grain bullet was 17 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .30-06/180 grain bullet was 15 fps per inch.
The average loss for the .35 Rem./200 grain bullet was 11 fps per inch.

After a bunch of disclaimers, the Lyman people concluded, "The rule of thumb is that high speed, high pressure cartridges shed more speed in short barrels than do the low speed, large bore types." It's funny, but that is what I had suspected all along!
CHUCK HAWKS

Win 64,
I always knew that you were a closet rifle guy:D
Mods. Request that you move this techno geeky stuff to another forum where it will be more appreciated;)
 
"Amphibious" Put the rifle into the equation. Not I.

I guess you are right about who started all this. When amphibious said "barrel length has nothing to do with pattern." he was in error. Everything between the firing pin and target has to do with pattern and barrel length is a significant factor, especially very short barrels.
 
I guess you are right about who started all this. When amphibious said "barrel length has nothing to do with pattern." he was in error. Everything between the firing pin and target has to do with pattern and barrel length is a significant factor, especially very short barrels.

go out and pattern some then. a 20 mod choke will produce the same pattern as a 30" mod choked barrel given the same distance from the muzzle.

there will be ever so slight variences due to velocity and pressure, but these will be virtually unnoticable when you look at the patterns on paper.

]you guys keep bringing up the "very short barrels". for the sake of this argument they may be relavent, but who is honestly going to go out and thread a 12" barrel for a choke tube?

and you're quoting chuck hawks? that self absorbed asshat? go find a credible source!

pattern is controled by the barrel's bore, forcing cone, and choke. given identical barrels we have eliminated the afor mentioned 2 factors and it comes down to the choke.


you guys keep harping on the rifle thing. you've still completely missed the point of the question. there is no answer!

which shoots farther 30" or 20" barrel?
which car is faster the big car or the little car?

not enough information. so much for trying to make a subtle point.

lets also not forget that wind resistance is a exponetial curve. so sure, your longer shotgun barrel might yeild more velocity at the muzzle, so you make think it will shoot farther (and yes it will, but better bust out your micrometer). but remember we're dealing with shotgun powders, these are very fast burning, your velocity increases per inch of pipe will be very low. so lets say you get a whopping 150fps gain from a 30" pipe vs. a 22"! wooooo hoooooo! now +150fps at the muzzle doesn't mean you'll have 150more fps @ 40yrs. the faster you go the more force pushes back exponetially. now my math isn't good enough to tell you the exaxt figures. but if you gained more then a yard or 2 of useable pattern I would be very suprised. again, realm of practicality to the original posters question: will a 28" pipe shoot further then his 26? no. will the pattern be tighter farther out? no.

ah isn't the internet grand?
 
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barrel length has nothing to do with pattern.

So now it's 20"s........Your barrel keeps getting longer.... To say barrel length has nothing to do with pattern is ludicrous. That's like saying a 12" full choke barrel will pattern the same as a 34" Full Choke Trap Gun. I Quoted "Chuck Hawks" because he was the first of many I found. Powder is burned in the barrel. Where else would it be burned?? After a day at the range you go home and clean your gun. You are cleaning "powder residue" from burned or unburned powder... from your barrel.
 
now you're going off into lala land again. why would you ever full choke a 12" barrel?

when you want to change your pattern what do you change? your CHOKE. pattern has little to do with velocity. it have everything to do with CHOKE.

this is not a hard concept to grasp. simple physics. you really need to get out and shoot more me thinks.
 
you guys keep bringing up the "very short barrels". for the sake of this argument they may be relavent, but who is honestly going to go out and thread a 12" barrel for a choke tube?

Do a search of this forum and you will be surprised how many want a choke or have installed chokes on those short ####ty shotties or is it shooty?

BTW you short barrel seems to be getting longer?
 
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