What makes a shotgun tactical?

PS... once you have trained in room clearing, or done a force on force scenario you will never debate hand held vs mounted...
 
Both is not a question. 2 is one, one is NONE

What is even better is to have training... Not just gear and gadgets.... Even "both" ;)
 
Plink said:
In a perfect world, one would have both handy for various situations.
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Then my world is perfect. :)

I have a weapon mounted light and assorted quality flash and spot lights. But the weapon light isn't used a replacement for a good flashlight.
 
TDC said:
Your post tells me you don't have an HD firearm or haven't thought out an HD setup. Lasers are useless additions. The light is an essential aspect for any HD firearm and optics are largely overrated and unnecessary.

TDC
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Have to take you to task on "Optics are largely over rated and unnecessary"

This is what was said about their use on Rifles not too long ago,and now those who can have some kind of optic on their flat top.

I firmly believe that small Red dot sights, such as Fast fire have a place on a HD/fighting shotgun,they are easier to use and quicker then irons ,especial at night or low light.
 
Claybuster said:
Preferably with a flashlight and not a weapon-mounted light. Just like using a scope instead of binoculars using a mounted light when you are not sure what is out there means you are pointing a loaded gun at a target that you haven't identified.

If I have to go out in response to a noise in the barn I'm not scanning the scene with the light on my shotgun but with a separate light.
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Two lights,one hand held for like you said,and the other ,weapon mounted on your long arm, this is how to do it.
 
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Hotwheels81 said:
The most tactical part of a pump shotgun is the SHIIIK-SHIIICK from racking the action... its a fear tactic... it works very well... and even people who know jack chit about firearms have some unexplained genetic memory that causes them to flee in terror when they hear that sound in the darkness... the flashlight need only be used to avoid stepping in urine puddles or long brown streak marks left on your floor.
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I was wondering how long it would be before this ignorant hollywood based myth would come into play. The sound of any action is not a deterrent, its a sign of poor training and tactics. Lets evaluate.

When and why would you decide to cycle the action. Probably once you've identified a threat or unwanted person(s) in your home. To identify said scumbag you would have to illuminate them. If you are using a weapon mounted light you are throwing the advantage out of the window and throwing your sights off target to cycle the action. If you're running a hand held light, you have no chance of engaging any threat until after you've illuminated the threat, dropped the light, cycled the action, mounted the shotgun and began searching for the threat in the dark because both hands are busy with the shotgun. Running your HD firearm "Israeli" without a round chambered clearly tells me you're unfamiliar with your hardware or are lacking in the training dept. Not only is the shotgun useless should you need to engage a threat but cycling the action is an audible clue to your location.

As was mentioned by others, if you feel you need the shotgun to investigate an unwanted or unfamiliar noise, then use a weapon mounted light. Identifying a threat only to have to mount the shotgun and acquire a sight picture is bad form and wastes precious time that could very well get you killed. Identifying what is or is not behind the light is near impossible. More importantly, anyone who has issues with the shotgun attached to my light needs to remember they are in my home or on my property without invitation.

TDC
 
Greenhorse six said:
Have to take you to task on "Optics are largely over rated and unnecessary"

This is what was said about their use on Rifles not too long ago,and now those who can have some kind of optic on their flat top.

I firmly believe that small Red dot sights, such as Fast fire have a place on a HD/fighting shotgun,they are easier to use and quicker then irons ,especial at night or low light.
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Optics on a rifle are very viable, depending on the role in question. The concern with iron sights on rifles is the lack of precision they offer at extended ranges and under low light/no light conditions. For social distance shooting irons are more than capable and so is the bead sight on a shotgun. Anything that runs on batteries will fail. With regards to HD, the range at which you would engage a threat is rather pathetic. Optics at such ranges are of little help. A mounted light illuminates the impact zone quite nicely for the 10 yard shots one might take inside their home. It is best to master the irons before relying on an optic. In the case of shotguns, optics are not necessary for their successful deployment.

I'm sure we've all seen Patrick Flanigan shooting clays with his shotgun upside down, behind the back, etc etc. So tell me, is his success because of barrel length, his sight choice, brand of shotgun, brand of shell or is it the skill of the operator??? Optics on shotguns are an example of a hardware solution to a software problem.

TDC
 
I think that "tactical" as a shotgun description is a term that leads to confusion.

I like the idea that "form follows function" or "mission dictates equipment"....what is useful on a breaching shotgun is pointless on a home defence shotgun. What may be needed on a police departments riot shotgun will be a PITA on a bear defence gun. Lumping them all under the horribly overused term "tactical" sets us all up for confusion.

I think we would generally be further ahead if we consigned the term "tactical shotgun" to the trash bin and discussed the gun and accessory setup based on function.

Note...if your shotguns function is merely to enrich CGN vendors by hanging $1500 worth of accessories on your $300 Norinco shotgun...carry on using the term "tactical".
 
effinggoof said:
I think that "tactical" as a shotgun description is a term that leads to confusion.

I like the idea that "form follows function" or "mission dictates equipment"....what is useful on a breaching shotgun is pointless on a home defence shotgun. What may be needed on a police departments riot shotgun will be a PITA on a bear defence gun. Lumping them all under the horribly overused term "tactical" sets us all up for confusion.

I think we would generally be further ahead if we consigned the term "tactical shotgun" to the trash bin and discussed the gun and accessory setup based on function.

Note...if your shotguns function is merely to enrich CGN vendors by hanging $1500 worth of accessories on your $300 Norinco shotgun...carry on using the term "tactical".
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Well said :agree:

TDC
 
Red dots ,No,no magnification, it's a lot faster to put a red dot on target then to have to line up the three points of using Iron sights, Rear sight, Front sight, Bad guy. and thats at any range.

and Holo sights,well ,these have to be used to be believed,they made me a believer.

Don't get me wrong,I'am a strong advocate of Iron sights,I'm one of those people that have to have them on everything,I'am why they made BUIS for the flat top ARs. Always have Iron sight,just in case


As far as shooting clays go,not to knock Flanigan,he is a gun slinger of a kind,but thats what he does, you only have to hit with a few pellet to break a clay, something coming right at you ,you want to put every thing center of mass,use the sights,no fancy trick shooting needed.

ETA, Some red dots can run for upto 5yrs on one battery. and a lot of them have been provin in combat.
 
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Greenhorse six said:
Red dots ,No,no magnification, it's a lot faster to put a red dot on target then to have to line up the three points of using Iron sights, Rear sight, Front sight, Bad guy. and thats at any range.

and Holo sights,well ,these have to be used to be believed,they made me a believer.

Don't get me wrong,I'am a strong advocate of Iron sights,I'm one of those people that have to have them on everything,I'am why they made BUIS for the flat top ARs.

As far as shooting clays go,not to knock Flanigan,he is a gun sling of a kind,but thats what he does, you only have to hit with a few pellet to break a clay, something coming right at you ,you want to put every thing center of mass,use the sights,no fancy trick shooting needed.
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If you run a bead sight you only need to see the bead on the target to score a hit. As for ghost rings which are nothing but aperture sights under a different name. You shouldn't be focusing on anything but the front sight. Indoors, its irrelevant. Point the rifle/shotgun at your target and squeeze. This is with the long arm mounted. No hip shooting sh*t. I've used reddots, and the HWS on both rifles and shotguns. They're great for rapid sight acquisition and excel at increased distances. For indoor work they're not required.

Mr. Flanigan is indeed shooting clays(as well as aspirin) and you're right, with bird shot it only takes a pellet or two to break them. The point I'm making is that many can't hit a clay pigeon with the shotgun mounted and the best/most vogue set of sights available. Gear will never replace skill and skill will never replace sound tactics and sound tactics are useless without the proper mindset. Do you see where I'm going with this? Its easy to focus on the gear, its "buy and bolt" simplicity. Mindset, tactics, and skill all require significant effort and dedication. The mention of optics or other accessories being required to perform a task immediately raises the question "what is the individuals mindset, what tactics are they employing and what is their skill level?" From my experience the answer is improper mindset, no tactics and very little skill.

As for shot placement, centre mass is but one target and isn't necessarily the target that will be available. If centre mass hits fail to neutralize the threat why continue to put rounds there? What if the only target available is the scumbags head, or his knee? You shoot for the centre of the largest available target. The important targets run from the top of the head down through the bottom of the pelvis in approximately a 5" cylinder.

TDC
 
Re the sight choice.

Expanding on my earlier post...form follows function and mission dictates equipment.

If your home is an apartment, throwing a dot sight on your home defence shotgun is probably a waste...if your home is a farm with outbuildings, I would say it's a worthy upgrade.
 
TDC said:
If you run a bead sight you only need to see the bead on the target to score a hit. As for ghost rings which are nothing but aperture sights under a different name. You shouldn't be focusing on anything but the front sight. Indoors, its irrelevant. Point the rifle/shotgun at your target and squeeze. This is with the long arm mounted. No hip shooting sh*t. I've used reddots, and the HWS on both rifles and shotguns. They're great for rapid sight acquisition and excel at increased distances. For indoor work they're not required.

Mr. Flanigan is indeed shooting clays(as well as aspirin) and you're right, with bird shot it only takes a pellet or two to break them. The point I'm making is that many can't hit a clay pigeon with the shotgun mounted and the best/most vogue set of sights available. Gear will never replace skill and skill will never replace sound tactics and sound tactics are useless without the proper mindset. Do you see where I'm going with this? Its easy to focus on the gear, its "buy and bolt" simplicity. Mindset, tactics, and skill all require significant effort and dedication. The mention of optics or other accessories being required to perform a task immediately raises the question "what is the individuals mindset, what tactics are they employing and what is their skill level?" From my experience the answer is improper mindset, no tactics and very little skill.

As for shot placement, centre mass is but one target and isn't necessarily the target that will be available. If centre mass hits fail to neutralize the threat why continue to put rounds there? What if the only target available is the scumbags head, or his knee? You shoot for the centre of the largest available target. The important targets run from the top of the head down through the bottom of the pelvis in approximately a 5" cylinder.

TDC
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Soo,Because you want to use better equipment,That means you don't have the skills to be doing this?

This is a forum about equipment, so that is what is focus on here.

I agree with you 100% on the skill of the guy behind the butt of the weapon being the most important,and having the proper mind site,I understand that,Gear will never replace skill,But why wouldn't you use the best gear you can get?

And shoot placemeant, put the red dot, on the bad guy body part that is showing.

And I know that many can't hit clays with the best optics out here, I have trouble doing it with GRS,Thats why I keep a Ray-bar front sight on my Ithaca 37[Had to put that in here.:D], But thats My needing more work.But again we're talking about a differnt kind of shooting, and you'e right about not needing them at across the room distance,just shoulder index and pull the trigger.But what about down the hallway?

But,why wouldn't you have the best you can get or afford on any weapon you're carrying.

P.S. I'am a Rifle man,but This is a good augment ,thanks.
 
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TDC said:
I was wondering how long it would be before this ignorant hollywood based myth would come into play. The sound of any action is not a deterrent, its a sign of poor training and tactics. Lets evaluate.

When and why would you decide to cycle the action. Probably once you've identified a threat or unwanted person(s) in your home. To identify said scumbag you would have to illuminate them. If you are using a weapon mounted light you are throwing the advantage out of the window and throwing your sights off target to cycle the action. If you're running a hand held light, you have no chance of engaging any threat until after you've illuminated the threat, dropped the light, cycled the action, mounted the shotgun and began searching for the threat in the dark because both hands are busy with the shotgun. Running your HD firearm "Israeli" without a round chambered clearly tells me you're unfamiliar with your hardware or are lacking in the training dept. Not only is the shotgun useless should you need to engage a threat but cycling the action is an audible clue to your location.

As was mentioned by others, if you feel you need the shotgun to investigate an unwanted or unfamiliar noise, then use a weapon mounted light. Identifying a threat only to have to mount the shotgun and acquire a sight picture is bad form and wastes precious time that could very well get you killed. Identifying what is or is not behind the light is near impossible. More importantly, anyone who has issues with the shotgun attached to my light needs to remember they are in my home or on my property without invitation.

TDC
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It was actually intended to be humor and nothing more...

Not only is the shotgun useless should you need to engage a threat but cycling the action is an audible clue to your location.
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so are your saying we should keep our HD weapons loaded and at the ready?
there is no way to get a round into the chamber of any gun that does not require manipulation of the guns action and even stifled by a pillow there will be some noise.

If you are using a weapon mounted light you are throwing the advantage out of the window and throwing your sights off target to cycle the action.
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if you cant keep your sights on target while you cycle the action then you have no business shooting at the target to begin with for a multitude of reasons... but lets use your own line here for a second...

Identifying what is or is not behind the light is near impossible.
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the person standing infront of you has the "deer in the headlights look", they dont know if the action on your gun is open or closed... they dont even know you are holding a gun. how can you reaffirm this to them?

The sound of any action is not a deterrent, its a sign of poor training and tactics.
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or its a well thought out and executed non-lethal deterent to peacefully end a home invasion... let the circumstances of the event dictate your actions and improvise accordingly within pre set guidelines... at the end of the day your mind is still the best weapon.
 
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