What makes an AR15?

Does it look like one... that's about it. That's why the S&W M&P 15-22 is Restricted and the GSG-5 is Prohibited. They are .22lr rifles that look like their standard caliber cousins so they are deemed "variants".
 
Does it look like one... that's about it. That's why the S&W M&P 15-22 is Restricted and the GSG-5 is Prohibited. They are .22lr rifles that look like their standard caliber cousins so they are deemed "variants".

Not according to recent case law. Check out the Henderson case. The RCMP will be forced to review many decisions soon.
 
Not according to recent case law. Check out the Henderson case. The RCMP will be forced to review many decisions soon.

Don't worry, I know all about the Henderson case ;)

And I hope so, but that's what they (the RCMP) have done, and will continue to do until ordered by the courts not to.
 
We either need a change to the restriction of the ar15 or something that is the function equivalent, non-restricted, and doesnt' cost an arm and a leg.
 
Let's re-phrase this.

We know that it's an AR-15 lower that is the restricted part. I have to keep a zip tie wrapped around one of mine, even though it doesn't have a trigger group, grip or stock. Heck, I need an STATT to take it to a gun smith, even though the worst I could do with it right now is club someone in the head with it.

We know that an AR-compatible upper can be bought without any registration/transfer issues. Furthermore, the same is the case in USA - you can basically buy the upper without going through an FFL dealer.

So basically the upper is just a gun part, similar in classification to a magazine, while the lower is the firearm.

Now, we have a law on books that is interpreted as saying that magazines intended for use in a pistol are OK for use in a rifle (Case in point, Ruger PC9 and Beretta CX4 Storm carbines that both take pistol mags).

At the same time we have another precedent - SIG 552 lower (that uses STANAG mags) can be attached to the Swiss Arms upper (with minor modifications). SIG 552 is considered prohibited, in case of both rifles the firearm part is the upper, so the conversion is not only legal but is in fact desirable - you can use LAR-15 pistol mags with your SA upper.

So non-registered parts of the firearms can be interchanged with impunity (with exception of barrels, where barrel shorter then 470 mm might result in change of classification from non-restricted to restricted).

So the question is....

If one were to design a lower that is sufficiently (I don't want to say 'functionally', since the function of this lower will be the same - to feed the ammo onto the chamber, and to hit the firing pin at the pull of a trigger) different from AR-15 lower - say without pistol grip and with a single piece wooden stock attached directly to the lower (without the visible buffer tube), with the trigger assembly being different from any existing AR-15 trigger groups (again, say, borrowing heavily on SKS trigger group, and heck, with the mechanical "block the trigger" safety instead of a sear disconnect), would the resulting contraption be considered an AR-15 variant based on the virtue of the fact that it can accept AR-15 compatible uppers? This hypothetical lower would look different from AR-15 lower, would have a different non-interchangeable trigger group, would have a different visual appearance, etc then AR-15 lower. (Yes, it's not simple to design, since upper imposes a number of constraints, but this is a hypothetical question)

If it would be considered a variant, then on what grounds? To me such situation would imply that each specific firearm would have to be individually classified as restricted or not based on the length of barrel of the upper attached. Lots of make work for CFC! They could keep Canadians safe by verifying what upper an owner put on the gun today. (In fact that's probably one of the reasons why AR-15 is restricted - too hard to keep track of what length upper owner attached to the lower. Yes, I know that RCMP would rather see it as prohib, but realistically, that's a lot of burden on CFC if AR-15 was mixed classification based on the length of the upper).

In fact, I can think of a kind of a relevant situation: Wolverine Supplies have mentioned in an XCR thread that they will not be importing XCR barrel/bolt kits in lengths other then 18.6" specifically so that there are no classification issues with the CFC, even though in USA Rob Arms makes shorter barrels available. So this is a case where a part is specifically kept out of the country so as to not mess up classification, even though part exists and is available for sale (and presumably for import if one were to jump through enough hoops).
 
Not according to recent case law. Check out the Henderson case. The RCMP will be forced to review many decisions soon.

Kindly provide me details on where to get info on the Henderson case... a search on here and google was fruitless.

EDIT: Nevermind, the second attempt worked.
 
@ notbsd

IMO, it would still be considered restricted, since the lower would have to share many dimensions with the standard AR15 lowers. Based just on it being built to accept AR15 uppers, it would be considered a variant.

Although I may be wrong. The Ar180b is basically a redesigned lower with the original upper (the AR180 is a prohib). So if the lower is incapable of accepting any standard AR15 parts, it may just work and be classified as Non-Restricted.
 
Uh, if only looks make a gun restricted, please look at the semi-auto Rem 597 VTR that certainly looks ARish, but is very much unrestricted. Not to mention the pump action Rem 5615.
 
There are many different answers from the same people, for example,

if the AR15 upper won't fit, it's not an AR15,
"but how about the ar10? nothing there fits an AR15, but they are restricted as AR15 varients"
but they use the same firing assembly
"so fireing assembly is the determinant',
maybe... or no, but in this case......

It has also been said to me "would this firearm exist if it were not for another firearm design" as defineing a variant.

FWIW
 
From direct corrspondence with the guy in charge of classifying firearms at the CFC, one of the major determination of an "AR15" is if it can mount and fire a standard AR15 upper.

ATR built a modified lower that could not mount AR15 uppers. The RCMP lab duct taped an AR15 upper to the lower. It fired one round and exploded. It was deemed a variant and restricted.

The other major deciding factors are what the weather is like and how much coffee the tech got that morning.
 
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From direct corrspondence with the guy in charge of classifying firearms at the CFC, one of the major determination of an "AR15" is if it can mount and fire a standard AR15 upper.

ATR built a modified lower that could not mount AR15 uppers. The RCMP lab duct taped[/i] an AR15 upper to the lower. It fired one round and exploded. It was deemed a variant and restricted.


Wow!

Just wow!

*sigh* And of course the fact that RCMP is in charge of both classification of the firearms, and fighting firearms owners is not seen as a conflict of interest.

I was thinking about something akin to designing some sort of ridge or extremity or something that would prevent an AR upper to fit onto a new lower without dremel work and drilling a hole for the pin. But I didn't know that someone tried this before.

*sigh* So seems like the way to fight the AR-15 restriction is political, not technological.
 
From direct corrspondence with the guy in charge of classifying firearms at the CFC, one of the major determination of an "AR15" is if it can mount and fire a standard AR15 upper.

ATR built a modified lower that could not mount AR15 uppers. The RCMP lab duct taped an AR15 upper to the lower. It fired one round and exploded. It was deemed a variant and restricted.

The other major deciding factors are what the weather is like and how much coffee the tech got that morning.

Wow... that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a hwile.
 
If it was based on compatability with uppers the Bushmaster Carbon 15 - 9mm would not be considered an AR variant. Think about it. It uses a dedicated upper and lower which will not swap with any AR15 upper or lower. It also will not shoot the same rounds. It isn't even called an AR 15. If I could somehow swap the 16 inch barrel for a couple inches longer and the henderson case gets won I'm thinking a reclassification is in order.
 
OK so what about the HK MR223? I've never been able to get a firm answer if it is officially a variant and thus restricted.

- Upper and lowers do not function with the AR family
- Very few parts are interchangeable (trigger group, buffer assembly, pistol grip and stock)
- Entirely different gas system, bolt group etc.

What if it were re-barreled with a 18.5 instead of the 16" that came with it. This thread interests me cause I've always been curious about what makes an AR and AR.

If it's looks, parts interchangeability, function etc etc, where are they drawing the line??
 
You guys are missing the other major factor, manufacturer literature and claims.

If the manufacturer says anything remotely close to "based on the AR15" it is an AR15. This the fate of the Carbon 15 and HK guns is sealed. This was also the downfall of the GSG9, manufacturer claimed it as a based on the MP5.
 
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