What would you pay for legal full cap AR15 magazines?
- Thread starter Armedsask
- Start date
Gatehouse said:Just a question as I am NOT much of a lback gunner...So bear wiht me Mr Armed Sask...
If you have these mags is it legal to INSERT it into an AR?
Your question was answered in a previous post...this one:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1112075&postcount=23
Perhaps one should seek legal advice before investing in such a venture. Powerwagons idea seems to have the most merit though. Then you wouldn't have to build a rifle. Also, now that hicap mags are back in the US, who knows how far one could go.
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i would back this whole idea. We need someone to lead the charge in designing the mag. This is a great idea. Look at what questar was able to do in a short time. Theres no reason this couldn't be accomplished. If you could legally shoot a 30 rd ar mag, i think you could sell them for $100 bucks plus. I bought my 5/30's from a gun store for $70 bucks a couple of years ago.
My only concern is that you are discussing this in a public forum. I know it sounds paranoid, but if you ever were called upon to prove the legality of your magazines and bolt action rifle, your intent can be called into question, and your discussion here used against you.
That being said, it all depends on how you want to produce them. Forming dies for simple steel bodies can be made relatively inexpensively and used on a simple H-frame press if you don't mind applying the elbow grease to make them yourself. Ribs and other design refinements would be difficult but not impossible to make work in this format, although the smoother the body, the better. Design the body so that it uses a commonly available follower and spring, and the only thing you need to make yourself is the body and floorplate unless you can find unmarked floorplates. It's labor intensive and requires skill as well as equipment, but it's cheap and I have pressed simple metal shapes out of a Bonnydoon type press before and I believe it could be done. You may want to consider this as an option to make proof of concept models to attract investors.
Setting up to die stamp objects that size industrially is of course expensive and you would need to be assured that you could sell large quantities of your porduct to break even.
The equipment and molds neccesary for plastic injection are probably out of the price range of the average home enthusiast unless you have really deep pockets. Sub-contracting stuff like that is also still expensive at the start, although it does have some very real advantages, like speed of production, low unit cost, good choice for small quantity runs and you can do things with injected plastic that are not cost effective in metal. In terms of a marketable product you would probably want to head in this direction.
That being said, it all depends on how you want to produce them. Forming dies for simple steel bodies can be made relatively inexpensively and used on a simple H-frame press if you don't mind applying the elbow grease to make them yourself. Ribs and other design refinements would be difficult but not impossible to make work in this format, although the smoother the body, the better. Design the body so that it uses a commonly available follower and spring, and the only thing you need to make yourself is the body and floorplate unless you can find unmarked floorplates. It's labor intensive and requires skill as well as equipment, but it's cheap and I have pressed simple metal shapes out of a Bonnydoon type press before and I believe it could be done. You may want to consider this as an option to make proof of concept models to attract investors.
Setting up to die stamp objects that size industrially is of course expensive and you would need to be assured that you could sell large quantities of your porduct to break even.
The equipment and molds neccesary for plastic injection are probably out of the price range of the average home enthusiast unless you have really deep pockets. Sub-contracting stuff like that is also still expensive at the start, although it does have some very real advantages, like speed of production, low unit cost, good choice for small quantity runs and you can do things with injected plastic that are not cost effective in metal. In terms of a marketable product you would probably want to head in this direction.
SPI, thanks for the input. I to was hesitant to share this on a public forum but then I said, "#### it."
Your idea to make simple, shop press made bodies is exactly what I was thinking. This would keep cost down and I'd only need to make a handful to get the legalities squared away. Once that's done, I could go for investors or just sell the design to some manufacturer willing to buy. Asking for a percentage of sales, of course.
I'm planning to make this different enough from other magazines that I could probably patent them, thus protecting myself from thieving pricks.
As for the prick Gatehouse, you're question has been answered numerous times. I refuse to answer it every five posts.
Besides, he's just grumpy because he didn't get any last night.
Your idea to make simple, shop press made bodies is exactly what I was thinking. This would keep cost down and I'd only need to make a handful to get the legalities squared away. Once that's done, I could go for investors or just sell the design to some manufacturer willing to buy. Asking for a percentage of sales, of course.
I'm planning to make this different enough from other magazines that I could probably patent them, thus protecting myself from thieving pricks.
As for the prick Gatehouse, you're question has been answered numerous times. I refuse to answer it every five posts.
Besides, he's just grumpy because he didn't get any last night.
P0WERWAGON
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- burnaby BC كافر
ok , who in canada makes forming dies for these relatively inexpensive forming dies. the best forming i can make is snow angels.
Armedsask said:SPI, thanks for the input. I to was hesitant to share this on a public forum but then I said, "f**k it."
Your idea to make simple, shop press made bodies is exactly what I was thinking. This would keep cost down and I'd only need to make a handful to get the legalities squared away. Once that's done, I could go for investors or just sell the design to some manufacturer willing to buy. Asking for a percentage of sales, of course.
I'm planning to make this different enough from other magazines that I could probably patent them, thus protecting myself from thieving pricks.
Yep I think that's probably the way to do it. I'd seek out investers as opposed to trying to shop it to a manufacturer first though.
Firearms history is rife with tales of manufacturers ripping off new ideas. Even if it was patented, you would have to have the funds to sue for infringement. I've also been told - by a manufacturer - that patent enforcement can be sketchy, and it's very easy for a company to hold off a suit for years, costing the plaintiff a ton of cash while they are making a ton of profit before just agreeing to a cease and desist order, or getting away with it based on a technicality in the wording of the patent.
Quite often too, manufacturers are satisfied with their product lines and unwilling to invest in the tooling to expand. However, that would not stop some of them from buying the rights to your invention just to have it if it was sufficiently novel and then shelving the project, particularly if your end of the deal was only a percentage of the gross with no minimum production assurance.
Firearms history books contain many such stories, and although I did not get much technical info out of it, Bill Holmes' Home Workshop Prototype Firearms contains some very revealing anecdotal stories of his attempts to market his designs. Maybe its a good indicator of how the industry works or perhaps it is a good indicator of why Bill is better known for writing books on making guns than actually designing them, but that chapter is an interesting read.
On the whole I think you would have the best success by manufacturing some proof of concept prototypes and then looking for investors, preferably firearms enthusiasts, but not people in the firearms industry. I suspect they will be more open to the concept. Even if you eventually shop the new mag to a manufacturer, you'll be able to deal from a position of strength if your brand and it's novelty is already "known" because there are a few hundred of them out there. Make sure that it is known, even when you are looking for potential investors that as the creator you own the copyright to the design and that patents are pending - even though designing a magazine feature sufficiently novel as to be patentable will be tough.
Anyway, good luck. I've been speaking to friends about the lack of an indigenous firearms industry in Canada for a long time and will help you out if I can.
P0WERWAGON said:
Well, following the flow of the conversation, I assume that ArmedSask would be undertaking making the dies himself, as he is a machinist in training. Furthermore, there is a wealth of information out there on amateur die forming that a reasonably creative mechanically oriented person could scale up or adapt to suit this purpose. Again, I'm assuming ArmedSask is such a person, being that I have seen some of his schematics and he has given me no reason to think otherwise. Given that he is a machinist in training, it also follows that he would have access to machines and that his only expenses would be tooling and materials. Added together, I would suggest that would equate to "relatively inexpensive forming dies". His biggest roadblock will be the design of the dies, not their actual manufacture, I think.
As usual this type of thread tends to turn into a debate. Getting back on track I believe the origonal question was:
It's a no brainer people!
Dave
I am going to bet they would sell like hotcakes for $100+ I would pay it without hesitation. Even the cheapest AR sells for 1k, for a hundred extra bucks you get six times the mag capacity.
It's a no brainer people!Dave
Armedsask said:Made to order would be commonly available, no? There's no law stating you can't make mags for a gun no one wants.
These new rifles sound like they would be a very charming addition to my collection. please put me on the waiting list to purchase this novel firearm! To save some money, please do not include any magazines with it, as I already have many mags that would work, from my AR15
Armedsask said:
500 mags should last like 500 $49 PS3s at a boxing day sale..... You might want to add a zero or two, and for the record I'd pay at least twice as much as an equivilant quality AR15 mag.
- Location
- East ontario
well anything i can do to help let me know.
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