What's the deal with Colt Canada SA15.7?

kennyclone said:
well thats the dumbest thing I've ever read.
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Have you tried reading the rest of the Firearms Act? I'm not one for spoilers, but it does follow a very specific theme similar to what you just read.

Luck would have it though, AR barrels are easy to change, and come in all sorts of lengths under 18 inches. So not really a big deal.
 
I don't get it. If you collect it makes sense. But without full auto fire the barrel really matters little is my understanding. For most people's use the U.S. Colt is more than good enough. In fact my Colt has been preferred by several people trained on the new government issue CC IUR because of a much lighter overall weight, much faster target aquisition times and overall just superior comfort levels. I kinda consider a CC a bonafide safe Queen and a DD or Colt USA or any others to be work guns... At least in typical shooters hands.
 
CreamySmooth said:
I don't get it. But without full auto fire the barrel really matters little is my understanding.
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You obviously don't get it. As Colt Canada has stated their rifles and barrels offer greater reliability (in tests against other premium military grade rifles) and have excellent accuracy at MOA or better. The Colt USA rifles/barrels are not in the same league as the CC products.

CC rifles are sought out and used by special forces the world over and come highly respected in the military and civilian markets for being as good as it gets in an AR barrel.

Knowing your barrel will retain it's accuracy after thousands upon thousands of rounds is what a CC barrel is capable of, plus better accuracy during repeated and constant/rapid rates of fire as well as MOA accuracy or better in the case of the IUR.

While DD does make a great rifle they are not tested to the extremes that the CC rifles are and while this extreme capability might not be applicable to the average Canadian shooter at the range, to those who do push their rifles hard in all of Canada's climates it's nice to know their rifles are tested to take all we can dish out and more.

I for one look forward to more CC products, but am not happy with their slow/no information regarding any release dates/products etc. as they were saying they would be releasing more as early as late 2014 w/o anything to show as of yet.

I wouldn't care if it was to take longer to get say a 14.5" C8IUR rifle to market (more time to save...), but I would like to know now if we are to wait until 2016 for availability and if they are coming this year why haven't they stated this already. It doesn't help keeping us in the dark as to their intentions, nor does it generate greater interest in their products by having no knowledge of whats to come.

Cheers D
 
Y
Zeroed-In said:
You obviously don't get it. As Colt Canada has stated their rifles and barrels offer greater reliability (in tests against other premium military grade rifles) and have excellent accuracy at MOA or better. The Colt USA rifles/barrels are not in the same league as the CC products.

CC rifles are sought out and used by special forces the world over and come highly respected in the military and civilian markets for being as good as it gets in an AR barrel.

Knowing your barrel will retain it's accuracy after thousands upon thousands of rounds is what a CC barrel is capable of, plus better accuracy during repeated and constant/rapid rates of fire as well as MOA accuracy or better in the case of the IUR.

While DD does make a great rifle they are not tested to the extremes that the CC rifles are and while this extreme capability might not be applicable to the average Canadian shooter at the range, to those who do push their rifles hard in all of Canada's climates it's nice to know their rifles are tested to take all we can dish out and more.

I for one look forward to more CC products, but am not happy with their slow/no information regarding any release dates/products etc. as they were saying they would be releasing more as early as late 2014 w/o anything to show as of yet.

I wouldn't care if it was to take longer to get say a 14.5" C8IUR rifle to market (more time to save...), but I would like to know now if we are to wait until 2016 for availability and if they are coming this year why haven't they stated this already. It doesn't help keeping us in the dark as to their intentions, nor does it generate greater interest in their products by having no knowledge of whats to come.

Cheers D
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I obviously get it. For a gun we've done without and is produced by a method that was developed for the heat production capabilities of an MG 42, we get bilked. CC's interest is in taking your money for over produced guns. Just before they disappeared on here, I put up a "review" of the use of one of the IUR guns that I've used vs. my Colt USA gun. Even with the company installed Geiseles the gun could not keep up to my personal US colt because it was heavy and far less accurate. CC rep promptly pulled my post down as it was in his forum. My mistake. Of the 4 trained users, every one preferred my M4. I get it well and have used the best of the CCs. They are overblown and expensive for a process that produces marginally more accurate rifles (in the testing/shooting we did, the CC was definitely not the more accurate rifle), I may accept that the rifle may stay more accurate for longer. However, for the CQB uses of these guns that's not an overly valid concern. Maybe if you could get barrels produced this way for long distance shooting, it may matter. But for the common user, the extra money could be used for another barrel or 2, or extra ammo. The guns make far more sense as collectables.

Here's again my opinion, take it for what it's worth. You don't see the Micaluks or other big shooters on CC rifles because it isn't required, or someone would make them. This isn't a proprietary technique. If like special forces you need a barrel that holds up after several thousand rounds of full auto fire this makes sense. CC Kool-Aid is high in Vitamin Patriot and that's cool. But it's also blinding. To say your gun is better because, for example, your castle nut has a hole and no notches, because someone might scratch thier little fingers, is ludicrous. Some guys need an Escalade, where a Chevy Silver-AAA-do is the same thing.
 
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You don't see the Micaluks or other big US shooters shooting Colt Canada rifles because they can't get them in the US. US import regs prohibit import and civilian sales.

Your argument is that because it is heavier, the CC rifle is inferior. Hardly a benchmark for a "review".
 
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CreamySmooth said:
Y

I obviously get it. For a gun we've done without and is produced by a method that was developed for the heat production capabilities of an MG 42, we get bilked. CC's interest is in taking your money for over produced guns. Just before they disappeared on here, I put up a "review" of the use of one of the IUR guns that I've used vs. my Colt USA gun. Even with the company installed Geiseles the gun could not keep up to my personal US colt because it was heavy and far less accurate. CC rep promptly pulled my post down as it was in his forum. My mistake. Of the 4 trained users, every one preferred my M4. I get it well and have used the best of the CCs. They are overblown and expensive for a process that produces marginally more accurate rifles (in the testing/shooting we did, the CC was definitely not the more accurate rifle), I may accept that the rifle may stay more accurate for longer. However, for the CQB uses of these guns that's not an overly valid concern. Maybe if you could get barrels produced this way for long distance shooting, it may matter. But for the common user, the extra money could be used for another barrel or 2, or extra ammo. The guns make far more sense as collectables.

Here's again my opinion, take it for what it's worth. You don't see the Micaluks or other big shooters on CC rifles because it isn't required, or someone would make them. This isn't a proprietary technique. If like special forces you need a barrel that holds up after several thousand rounds of full auto fire this makes sense. CC Kool-Aid is high in Vitamin Patriot and that's cool. But it's also blinding. To say your gun is better because, for example, your castle nut has a hole and no notches, because someone might scratch thier little fingers, is ludicrous. Some guys need an Escalade, where a Chevy Silver-AAA-do is the same thing.
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Certianly a large portion of buyers have/will buy for collector or nostalgia reasons, but my SA20 is the most accurate AR I own (I own over 20 AR rifles/carbines. Last week I shot a 99/100 at 300 meters with a C79 mounted at the Tell Swiss Rifle range. The one 9 ring was called before it printed out in the computer and 6 out of 9 bulls were within a 5 cm circle with the other 3 landing within the 10cm ring. This was with PMC Green Tip and there was a slight diagonal breeze of 5-10 Kph. My IUR and SA15.7 are nearly as accurate as well.

CC is doing something right obviously. I for one don't mind spending a few hundred $ more to get that level of out of box accuracy.
 
CreamySmooth said:
Y

I obviously get it. For a gun we've done without and is produced by a method that was developed for the heat production capabilities of an MG 42, we get bilked. CC's interest is in taking your money for over produced guns. Just before they disappeared on here, I put up a "review" of the use of one of the IUR guns that I've used vs. my Colt USA gun. Even with the company installed Geiseles the gun could not keep up to my personal US colt because it was heavy and far less accurate. CC rep promptly pulled my post down as it was in his forum. My mistake. Of the 4 trained users, every one preferred my M4. I get it well and have used the best of the CCs. They are overblown and expensive for a process that produces marginally more accurate rifles (in the testing/shooting we did, the CC was definitely not the more accurate rifle), I may accept that the rifle may stay more accurate for longer. However, for the CQB uses of these guns that's not an overly valid concern. Maybe if you could get barrels produced this way for long distance shooting, it may matter. But for the common user, the extra money could be used for another barrel or 2, or extra ammo. The guns make far more sense as collectables.

Here's again my opinion, take it for what it's worth. You don't see the Micaluks or other big shooters on CC rifles because it isn't required, or someone would make them. This isn't a proprietary technique. If like special forces you need a barrel that holds up after several thousand rounds of full auto fire this makes sense. CC Kool-Aid is high in Vitamin Patriot and that's cool. But it's also blinding. To say your gun is better because, for example, your castle nut has a hole and no notches, because someone might scratch thier little fingers, is ludicrous. Some guys need an Escalade, where a Chevy Silver-AAA-do is the same thing.
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This is just like the Vstrom vs the BMW GS.
Both will do pretty much the same thing.
But I will keep riding the BMW because it's what I want in a bike.
 
CreamySmooth said:
Y

I get it well and have used the best of the CCs. They are overblown and expensive for a process that produces marginally more accurate rifles (in the testing/shooting we did, the CC was definitely not the more accurate rifle), I may accept that the rifle may stay more accurate for longer. However, for the CQB uses of these guns that's not an overly valid concern. Maybe if you could get barrels produced this way for long distance shooting, it may matter.
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If you can't see the advantages of a more accurate, more durable AR you might want to take up black powder or something involving a shotgun.
 
CreamySmooth said:
I obviously get it. For a gun we've done without and is 1.) produced by a method that was developed for the heat production capabilities of an MG 42, we get bilked. 2.) CC's interest is in taking your money for over produced guns. Just before they disappeared on here, 3.) I put up a "review" of the use of one of the IUR guns that I've used vs. my Colt USA gun. Even with the company installed Geiseles the gun could not keep up to my personal US colt because it was heavy and far less accurate. CC rep promptly pulled my post down as it was in his forum. My mistake. Of the 4 trained users, every one preferred my M4. I get it well and have used the best of the CCs. They are overblown and expensive for a process that produces marginally more accurate rifles (in the testing/shooting we did, the CC was definitely not the more accurate rifle),4.) I may accept that the rifle may stay more accurate for longer. However, for the CQB uses of these guns that's not an overly valid concern. 5.) Maybe if you could get barrels produced this way for long distance shooting, it may matter. But 6.) for the common user, the extra money could be used for another barrel or 2
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Okay here we go:

1.) Colt Canada has stated their production techniques, methods and materials for their SA 15.7/20 (and all the C7/C8 rifle barrels) barrels are used to not only attain better heat dissipation, but are for many other reasons including maintaining repeatable accuracy after tens of thousands of rounds fired, extreme cold weather use, maintaining accuracy during continued rapid rates of fire among others.

2.) I for one do not mind paying a little more or in some cases less for an over built rifle and do not believe that the CC rifles are over priced when you consider all of their qualities.

3.) Not sure how you attained a complete CC IUR rifle unless you are a part of our nations or another's special forces? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of anyone besides those "Damn Few" having access to a complete CC IUR rifle at this time.

4.) How is not staying more accurate for longer not a valid concern in a real battle? where it is common for troops to engage with more then a dozen 30Rd. mag.'s and exhaust all or most of their ammo. in a relatively short period of time. Or for that matter during a lifetime of shooting at the range (possible competitions) for the average civilian shooter, where a rifle that can remain accurate during high rates of fire and that maintains it's accuracy for thousands of rounds is what we all want in a rifle.

5.) CC rifles are made for engaging an enemy at all distances up to and beyond 500m not just CQB work and do come in 20" barrel lengths as well which have proven accurate beyond 800m in competitions.

6.) Why buy an inferior rifle and then spend money on an extra barrel when the CC's rifles original barrel will likely last the life of the shooter and his or her grandchildren all the while offering better performance.

You have to recognize that the SA15.7/20 rifles and barrels are made to the same quality as our militaries C7/C8 rifles/barrels which is not something to take lightly as our military's C7/C8 rifles are respected around the world for their quality reliability and accuracy.

Not trying to be harsh on you personally CreamySmooth, but just wanting you to recognize that the Colt Canada rifles and particularly their barrels are significantly better then the Colt USA rifles you find south of the border.

Cheers D
 
KAC used to use CC barrels until they started producing barrels with their own in house CHF process. IIRC, it was getting harder to get a supply of CC barrels, thus the change. It may be that not all of the barrrels were from CC but some were. This may have been during the Diemaco years too, I am not sure of the timeline.

At least two industry experts have endorsed the CC rifles and one suggested that he would buy a couple if they were available in the U.S.

I was irritated by the initial pricing that I perceived as a distributor cashgrab. However, I got what I consider to be a good deal on my 15.7. I'm very happy with it. I probably will buy an IUR upper at some point. It isn't my number one priority though.
 
KeltecFan said:
KAC used to use CC barrels until they started producing barrels with their own in house CHF process. IIRC, it was getting harder to get a supply of CC barrels, thus the change. It may be that not all of the barrrels were from CC but some were. This may have been during the Diemaco years too, I am not sure of the timeline.

At least two industry experts have endorsed the CC rifles and one suggested that he would buy a couple if they were available in the U.S.

I was irritated by the initial pricing that I perceived as a distributor cashgrab. However, I got what I consider to be a good deal on my 15.7. I'm very happy with it. I probably will buy an IUR upper at some point. It isn't my number one priority though.
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A couple of retailers just dropped $100 off the IUR today...
 
Zeroed-In said:
Okay here we go:

1.) Colt Canada has stated their production techniques, methods and materials for their SA 15.7/20 (and all the C7/C8 rifle barrels) barrels are used to not only attain better heat dissipation, but are for many other reasons including maintaining repeatable accuracy after tens of thousands of rounds fired, extreme cold weather use, maintaining accuracy during continued rapid rates of fire among others.

2.) I for one do not mind paying a little more or in some cases less for an over built rifle and do not believe that the CC rifles are over priced when you consider all of their qualities.

3.) Not sure how you attained a complete CC IUR rifle unless you are a part of our nations or another's special forces? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of anyone besides those "Damn Few" having access to a complete CC IUR rifle at this time.

4.) How is not staying more accurate for longer not a valid concern in a real battle? where it is common for troops to engage with more then a dozen 30Rd. mag.'s and exhaust all or most of their ammo. in a relatively short period of time. Or for that matter during a lifetime of shooting at the range (possible competitions) for the average civilian shooter, where a rifle that can remain accurate during high rates of fire and that maintains it's accuracy for thousands of rounds is what we all want in a rifle.

5.) CC rifles are made for engaging an enemy at all distances up to and beyond 500m not just CQB work and do come in 20" barrel lengths as well which have proven accurate beyond 800m in competitions.

6.) Why buy an inferior rifle and then spend money on an extra barrel when the CC's rifles original barrel will likely last the life of the shooter and his or her grandchildren all the while offering better performance.

You have to recognize that the SA15.7/20 rifles and barrels are made to the same quality as our militaries C7/C8 rifles/barrels which is not something to take lightly as our military's C7/C8 rifles are respected around the world for their quality reliability and accuracy.

Not trying to be harsh on you personally CreamySmooth, but just wanting you to recognize that the Colt Canada rifles and particularly their barrels are significantly better then the Colt USA rifles you find south of the border.

Cheers D
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Okay, here we go:

1) No doubt it has an advantage. Never said it didn't. However, my point would be that this is not something a standard shooter needs or will take advantage of. You made due with all the other AR's until now, and they performed wonderfully. Even in the cold. Ammunition and lube and magazines is/are a bigger concern than the gun in the cold. This is from my experience in the Arctic. As I mentioned before, a lot of this lust for a CC is Rabid Patriotism. And there's nothing wrong with that.

2) Good for you if you want to pay more. After using an IUR, I'd rather have a DD or one of several other rifles that are more customizable, and don't require special tools. They feel better shooting than the IUR's and are significantly lighter. That's my opinion. However, for some reason when I put that in a thread on the Colt Canada forum here, he pulled it down within 10 minutes of it going up, as I posted some comparison pics and an overall review of a CC and a Colt USA gun. Dissent was not tolerated!

3) C8IUR Patrol sighted for 77grn IVI ammo and it was ungainly to handle compared to the "KISS" Colt M4 I have. The standard CC trigger was deemed inferior and was replaced with a Geisele, which did encourage me to get one.... I actually think the new Blackout was a cooler gun... Those Keyhole forged receivers probably mean it's inferior though, as CC doesn't make a Blackout yet I don't believe.

4) I'm not talking troops. Should have used a more "civilian" term. Shooting paper lets call it. I'm talking home consumer. Troops may want every little advantage, but for a civilian to realize this advantage in private use would be indiscernible from any other quality barrel. They're all designed to shoot fast and not break. The CHF process was designed for MG42 barrels for a reason. Accuracy was secondary. This is my understanding of it.

5) Cool. These buyers aren't engaging hostile targets at 800 meters. And as has been proven, the rifle isn't the problem, the round is at 800 meters. So again in my opinion a moot point.

6) This was my initial point. Until these rifles were miraculously introduced to be sold off because they made too many, so they could recover costs, most guys posting here had the same awe and reverence for the rifle they had before, as any fanboy does. I'm a Colt fanboy. DD is a close second. And I like Armalites. Go figure. But now these are inferior rifles?? When you were using these rifles, how many barrels did you replace? I'm well into 6000 with mine, accuracy is as good now as it was then. Colt USA's have fired more rounds in the sandbox, and are battle proven as any Colt Canada rifle. Statistically possibly more so.

So not trying to be harsh on you personally Zeroed-In, but all these previous points are just a smoke screen and a distraction for the main point. A company that doesn't care about you the private user, other than a place to dump surplus rifles to make their money back. In fact, they just shut down and didn't even tell you why they were gone. They showed up, de-flowered the bride, and ran away without another word. And now you look at the bride down your nose.

Have a good one.

Cheers, C.
 
CreamySmooth said:
Okay, here we go:

1) No doubt it has an advantage. Never said it didn't. However, my point would be that this is not something a standard shooter needs or will take advantage of. You made due with all the other AR's until now, and they performed wonderfully. Even in the cold. Ammunition and lube and magazines is/are a bigger concern than the gun in the cold. This is from my experience in the Arctic. As I mentioned before, a lot of this lust for a CC is Rabid Patriotism. And there's nothing wrong with that.

2) Good for you if you want to pay more. After using an IUR, I'd rather have a DD or one of several other rifles that are more customizable, and don't require special tools. They feel better shooting than the IUR's and are significantly lighter. That's my opinion. However, for some reason when I put that in a thread on the Colt Canada forum here, he pulled it down within 10 minutes of it going up, as I posted some comparison pics and an overall review of a CC and a Colt USA gun. Dissent was not tolerated!

3) C8IUR Patrol sighted for 77grn IVI ammo and it was ungainly to handle compared to the "KISS" Colt M4 I have. The standard CC trigger was deemed inferior and was replaced with a Geisele, which did encourage me to get one.... I actually think the new Blackout was a cooler gun... Those Keyhole forged receivers probably mean it's inferior though, as CC doesn't make a Blackout yet I don't believe.

4) I'm not talking troops. Should have used a more "civilian" term. Shooting paper lets call it. I'm talking home consumer. Troops may want every little advantage, but for a civilian to realize this advantage in private use would be indiscernible from any other quality barrel. They're all designed to shoot fast and not break. The CHF process was designed for MG42 barrels for a reason. Accuracy was secondary. This is my understanding of it.

5) Cool. These buyers aren't engaging hostile targets at 800 meters. And as has been proven, the rifle isn't the problem, the round is at 800 meters. So again in my opinion a moot point.

6) This was my initial point. Until these rifles were miraculously introduced to be sold off because they made too many, so they could recover costs, most guys posting here had the same awe and reverence for the rifle they had before, as any fanboy does. I'm a Colt fanboy. DD is a close second. And I like Armalites. Go figure. But now these are inferior rifles?? When you were using these rifles, how many barrels did you replace? I'm well into 6000 with mine, accuracy is as good now as it was then. Colt USA's have fired more rounds in the sandbox, and are battle proven as any Colt Canada rifle. Statistically possibly more so.

So not trying to be harsh on you personally Zeroed-In, but all these previous points are just a smoke screen and a distraction for the main point. A company that doesn't care about you the private user, other than a place to dump surplus rifles to make their money back. In fact, they just shut down and didn't even tell you why they were gone. They showed up, de-flowered the bride, and ran away without another word. And now you look at the bride down your nose.

Have a good one.

Cheers, C.
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I will say I believe your (bold printed statement) to be incorrect as CC stated that these were not an over run, but a planned 30th anniversary edition run of #1,000 rifles.


So we do agree on a few items, I did actually but a DD instead of a CC rifle due to a sale on a new DD last year and I like Armalite AR-10's and am a Colt Canada fan based first and foremost due to they quality, reliability and accuracy, being made in Canada is only a bonus (as I feel the same way for a certain German built piston AR).

I'm not going to continue the banter Creamy Smooth and we can agree to disagree amicably, but I will say many of your points are incorrect and are a smoke screen to your true feelings (perhaps); in that you admit the CC products are better just not worth the extra money better and that's okay we all have our opinions and budgets myself included.

I for one appreciate the fact for about the same price as a current DD I can get a world class military grade/tested/proven in battle AR rifle (made in Canada) with some design/performance features that are not available on any other AR rifle in the world.

Oh, btw you know imitation is the nicest form of flattery...

Cheers D
 
CreamySmooth said:
Okay, here we go:
Good for you if you want to pay more. After using an IUR, I'd rather have a DD or one of several other rifles that are more customizable, and don't require special tools. They feel better shooting than the IUR's and are significantly lighter. That's my opinion. However, for some reason when I put that in a thread on the Colt Canada forum here, he pulled it down within 10 minutes of it going up, as I posted some comparison pics and an overall review of a CC and a Colt USA gun. Dissent was not tolerated!

.
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Probably your personal critique should not have been in their forum?
After the many thousands of hours in R&D, and some their rifles being selected as the #1 choice by foreign military procurement, they may have thought a backyard test by one individual really didn't belong in their vendors thread?
I can see their point.
 
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