What's the deal with M96 Mausers being chambered in .30-06?

[Potashminer]

I have an M38 action that was rebarreled and chambered to 6mm Remington. ....

My 38 was tested with high pressure cartridges, developing around 65,000 psi, while tied to a wheel. Three times. I did this before I put it beside my face to shoot.

....

Pressure testing - I got concerned about some "farmer hacksaw" mods that my Dad had done to his M1917 30-06 - modified by him in 1948 - he had shot dozens and dozens of head of game with it over the years since - always commercial ammo - he never had anything to do with hand loading. In an attempt, he had cut a slot, quite deeply, I thought, over the chamber area - to install a rear sight on the barrel, then changed his mind about the location. When the rifle came to me I wanted to get it "proof tested" to satisfy myself that it would still meet spec - apparently, as per CGN feedback at the time, not available to be done in Canada...

So, that 6mm Remington. From reading, SAAMI and CIP measure pressure in different places - so get slightly different numbers. You can go here to see a chart of the various cartridges, with SAAMI versus CIP limits, in both piezo tested PSI, or crusher generated CUP. http://kwk.us/pressures.html SAAMI says 65,000 PSI is limit for 6mm Rem, measuring the way that they specify; CIP says 62,000 PSI using their procedure. There are separate numbers listed for each, using the CUP measurement system. CIP "proof testing" requires firing two loads that are 25% above maximum pressure, without the bolt, receiver, barrel, etc. permanently deforming, so they have to be accurately measured before and after the proof testing. So the "proof loads" for CIP, would be 77,500 PSI, measured using CIP system.

A curious thing I discovered - "proof load", I think, is an engineering concept - to confirm that the thing will continue to bear the rated load into the future - not just for firearms - bridges, roof trusses, tank or vat walls, etc. NOTE - it appears to be about continued use at RATED load, not continued use at PROOF load. A poster on CGN, to my earlier enquiry about "proofing", pointed out that the fact that my Dad might have fired a thousand factory rounds without that rifle "blowing up", essentially got me to same place as an "engineered" proof test would - was not likely to blow up on the next factory load firing - in one case because it had been "proofed", in the other case, because it had already been fired, let's say a thousand times (this later case was about the idea if it was going to let go, it already would have...)

 

[Potashminer]

I'm no reloader, but wikipedia says the PSI of .30-06 is 58k for CIP and 60k for SAAMI. I keep seeing people say it's ~50k, so what's up with that?

Go to that kwk chart - 60k / 58k looks to be SAAMI / CIP limits in PSI - using piezometer measuring - using each of their measuring methods - 50k / 51k is the same pressure, in a 30-06 - measured by SAAMI / CIP using Copper Units of Pressure - CUP. Some writings get very sloppy with use of these terms - US Army early publications clearly describe Copper Crusher test procedures, but report numbers as "PSI" - they were not testing directly for PSI as is done with a piezometer - they were testing for CUP - and then apparently some writer's were omitting to convert that CUP number to the associated PSI number.

EDITED @2:49 PM: I received better information than I previously had - there does in fact seem to be a statistical correlation between a PSI number and a CUP number across numerous cartridges - they are not "independent" of each other...

 

[zuke]

Go to that kwk chart - 60k / 58k looks to be SAAMI / CIP limits in PSI - using piezometer measuring - using each of their measuring methods - 50k / 51k is the same pressure, in a 30-06 - measured by SAAMI / CIP using Copper Units of Pressure - CUP. Does not appear to be a mathematical way to translate "PSI" into "CUP" that works across all cartridges. PSI and CUP are different testing procedures of the same thing, but result in different numbers. Sorta like measuring a board in inches or centimetres - except PSI and CUP do not always match up to each other, one "board" to another... Some writings get very sloppy with use of these terms - US Army early publications describe clear Copper Crusher test procedures, but report numbers as "PSI" - they were not testing directly for PSI - they were testing for CUP...

Like I heard last week about the last US-European Mars lander. It was built by the European's IE the metric system. But when they put in the number's in the US to go into orbit they put the numbers in MPH.
It never made it around Mars

 

[Potashminer]

There was an example much closer to home - an Air Canada commercial flight heading to Edmonton from Eastern Canada ran out of fuel and had to "glide" into a landing at an abandoned air strip - happened here in Manitoba - kg's to pounds, gallons to litres, and so on, was all a part of the multiple mix-ups that occurred.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

 

[zuke]

There was an example much closer to home - an Air Canada commercial flight heading to Edmonton from Eastern Canada ran out of fuel and had to "glide" into a landing at an abandoned air strip - happened here in Manitoba - kg's to pounds, gallons to litres, and so on, was all a part of the multiple mix-ups that occurred.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

Saw that on TV!

 

[Philthy1]

Might be able to find a thread I started about this a few years ago. I had bought a STIGA brand 30-06. I got investigating - was made from an ex-military Swede M94/96/38 receiver, with a M94 (likely) bolt and a possibly Danish (?) barrel. Also has the "Nitro test" proof marks. To me that was key - when receiver was re-barrelled, that bolt, receiver and barrel got the "blue pill" - CIP in Europe sets how much over pressure that proof load is - I do not think Sweden joined C.I.P. but follow similar, if not identical, rules. Not required here in North America, usually. Anyone can screw a 30-06 barrel into any receiver and throw on any bolt that looks like it might fit - of unknown background, and never pressure tested to any standard - and can try to sell it to someone. About the third buyer down the line will have no clue what it is that he has bought.

Also, I was told, I think here on CGN, that the STIGA throats are unusually long for a 30-06 - that is one way to limit or control breech pressures - Roy Weatherby was using the concept for his early "boomers". So, I no longer have any doubts or worries about that STIGA 30-06 rifle here. I am quite certain it will handle CIP / SAAMI pressure levels for the 30-06, as long as I need it to.

Magazine length can be a thing. Many Swedes are a bit short to accept some factory 30-06 rounds. This rifle had the Swede military magazine lengthened to accommodate that. Might be why the swap to 8x57JS might be just a bit easier - I think all cartridges will fit, as is.

I've got a Algen 30-06 which is the same as as a Stiga in every discernable way, but the jump to lands is short. Much shorter than a Brno 30-06 for example

 

[Potashminer]

I do not know what to say in reply - you have found a difference between my STIGA 30-06 and your Algen 30-06 rifle. Does your rifle have Danish or Swedish proof marks on it??

 

[mkrnel]

Kimber of America converted tens of thousands of ex-mil M38 and M96 Swedish Mausers into modern sporters, I had one in 22-250 with I believe was a SS Shillen barrel that they offered and remember seeing them offered in .243 Win, .308 Win, .22-250, 6.5x55mm and other calibres and they sold them for about 5 years during their startup in the 1990's. A friend had one in .308 and he used it for many, many years until he shot out the barrel and it started to shoot over 3" groups and then bought a new .308 Savage BA.

Never heard of one of those blowing up or having any issues either.

 

[jamesharrison]

Re: Never heard of one of those blowing up or having any issues either.

Just google: Kimber Swede rifle blow-ups

 

[mkrnel]

Re: Never heard of one of those blowing up or having any issues either.

Just google: Kimber Swede rifle blow-ups

Well, I googled like you suggested and found about only 3 cases of Kimber blown up or damaged rifles and all seemed to be the 6.5x55mm ones and none of the .243, .308, .22-250 or 7-08 rebarreled ones like most would assume would be the problem and some on the web thought one might have been because the shooter may had used 160gr Carcano .268 dia bullets in their handloads. Three rifles out of 10's of thousands sold over 30 years that could have been because of bad handloads is still a very good record for the 100+ year old actions.

Do you have any details on any in the calibres that they offered them in that I have mentioned blowing up?

 

[Hitzy]

I don't think Kimber sold 10's of thousands of these rifles....
This guy, plant manager at the time claims "hundreds"....
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearms-knives-other-brands/165981-kimber-swedish-mauser-conversion.html

 

[mkrnel]

I don't think Kimber sold 10's of thousands of these rifles....
This guy, plant manager at the time claims "hundreds"....
http://smith-wessonforum.com/firear.../165981-kimber-swedish-mauser-conversion.html

Apparently they bought at least 30,000 in their first batch in the early 1990's and sold them in the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. They sold them for about 7 years until they ran out of stock of rifles to convert.

Just Google "Kimber Swedish Mausers" and 30 years later you will still find hundreds of postings and many still for sale secondhand in the USA, Australia and elsewhere, so your figure of only hundreds made is almost comical especially since they made them in at least 5 different chambering and the fact they are still so plentiful on the used gun market.

They are still very common and easy to find in online gunshop and auction ads in the USA and Australia. I visited Australia just before the 1996 gun laws came into being and visited a number of gunshops (which used to be very common and plentiful down under and in some states you did not even need a gun licence only a drivers licence to buy guns) and they all had racks full of these Kimber guns at the time.

I used to subscribe to a couple of Aussie gun mags back in the 1990's and remember seeing the Kimber converted Swedish Mauser ads for the 4 years I was getting them. The dealer was Fullers Firearms Ltd of Australia. They also commonly sold a version in Australia that just had the military wood cut back on a M38 to the front sling swivel and had it drilled and tapped and fitted with a Nikko Sterling scope. Some I saw in Australia also were fitted into cheap new made Beech sporter stocks.

BTW, Kimber first started in Australia before moving to the USA. Kimber was founded as "Kimber of Oregon" in 1979 by Jack Warne and his son Greg Warne in the small town of Clackamas, Oregon. An Australian, Jack Warne setup Kimber in Oregon in 1968 after Portland-based Omark Industries purchased the Australian firearms manufacturer, Sporting Arms (or Sportco), which he had founded in Adelaide, South Australia, following World War II.

In the late 1980s, the company began to struggle after a private stock offering fell short of covering the costs of developing the M89 BG (Big Game) Rifle. In 1989, Kimber of Oregon was sold to Oregon timber baron Bruce Engel, who founded WTD Industries, Inc. Engel had difficulty running Kimber and soon the company sought bankruptcy protection. However, Kimber of Oregon's assets were liquidated.

In 1990, several Kimber employees, including Dan Cooper, left to found Cooper Firearms of Montana. Jack Warne left to found the Warne Manufacturing Company in February 1991, which began manufacture of a new rifle scope mounting system.

In the mid-1990s, Greg Warne tried to revive Kimber, but much of Kimber of Oregon's original tooling had ended up in a junkyard north of Portland. Warne soon found a financial backer in Les Edelman, who owned Nationwide Sports Distributors. The two purchased the original tooling and partnered to found Kimber of America. Around this time is when Kimber bought tens of thousands of surplus Swedish Mausers and started to convert them into sporting rifles for sale both in America and overseas as a way to improve their finances and get them in a sound position again. The company grew quickly, but Edelman forced Greg Warne out after acquiring a majority interest in the company.

This one was imported into the USA as a rebarreled sporter probably from Australia where Kimber first started.

Another imported Kimber Swedish Mauser

Kimber for sale secondhand in the UK - https://www.ukgunroom.com/viewGun.jsp?id=84041




https://www.chuckhawks.com/kimber_swedish_mauser.htm

 

[mkrnel]

BTW, I also used to own A CG-63E converted target rifle in 7.62 NATO/.308 win and shot it for years with both military and commercial ammo and it never missed a beat and it was made on a 1901 Carl Gustav action too. The Singapore Police used them as their sniper rifles for a long time as well. They handled lots of .308 win ammo without any issues or blowing up.

 

[riversrest]

^Thanks for above!

 

[p.Rundle]

This is super neat, keep it coming boys

 

[Hitzy]

I've got several 96's as well, oldest is an 1899 Obie 6.5x55, couple commercial HVA's, they are ok rifles, the action strength isn't the concern it's case failure and gas handling.
The lock time is terrible on these rifles however, fine for hunting, you will only squeeze so much accuracy out of one even the accurized heavy barrel target versions due to this. Any cheap modern rifle will still shoot better with the exception of maybe a muzzle loader lol.

 

[mkrnel]

I've got several 96's as well, oldest is an 1899 Obie 6.5x55, couple commercial HVA's, they are ok rifles, the action strength isn't the concern it's case failure and gas handling.
The lock time is terrible on these rifles however, fine for hunting, you will only squeeze so much accuracy out of one even the accurized heavy barrel target versions due to this. Any cheap modern rifle will still shoot better with the exception of maybe a muzzle loader lol.

I agree with all you say with the exception of the accuracy, the .22-250 Kimber one I had was able to consistently put 3 shots into 1.5 inches at 200 metres (very acceptable accuracy from any rifle). I sold it and later wanted another .22-250 and bought a Ruger M77 in the same calibre and the best it would do was 3 inch groups at 200m. Many others who have owned M96 rifles that have been rechambered in newer cailbres as well as 6.5x55mm will also attest to the accuracy they have got from their rifles. Comparing them to muzzle loaders is a bit of a stretch at the best, might as well say the same about .303 lee Enfield's as they never came close to Mauser M96 rifles for long range accuracy and the British developed the P14 in response to getting their butts kicked hard in the Boar was against M95 Mausers at long range.

Also most don't realize this but even the much vaunted Winchester pre-64 Model 70 had the same gas handling abilitiy as the M96 and even less casehead protection.

 

[David Scott]

Spanish Mausers tested to destruction

Somewhat on topic, this concerns Spanish Mausers chambered in 7.62 Nato that were tested to destruction. This testing was designed to address concerns about the strength of the small ring Mauser action.

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[Andy]

Lots of "folklore" out there that is impervious to facts. Another "dangerous" firearm is the Norwegian Krag that has also been rechambered to 308.

 

[Potashminer]

Mkrnel - as per the Crown Jewels book, the CG63E was apparently made in Sweden at the Carl Gustaf Arsenal, for British shooters - the pictures that you show illustrate the British proof stampings on the chamber area - at least I think that is what the symbols are saying. 20 tons per square inch, I think reflects the axial loading testing as done by Britain - I am not sure that I know how that translates to SAAMI or CIP radial pressure testing.

Regardless, to your knowledge, did Kimber ever do proof testing on the Swede conversions that they sold? I would find it odd if an American manufacturer would not do something to protect self, especially in law-suit happy USA?