GunsNotPuns
CGN frequent flyer
If someone is taking umbrage about barrel tuners in any context, they need to touch grass.
Whats Your Choice of Barrel Tuners for 22 Precision
- Thread starter waynewjw
- Start date
If someone is taking umbrage about barrel tuners in any context, they need to touch grass.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I will look at your posts. Thanks for sharing. There is no doubt that if you can match ammo to barrel, life is great. Sometimes that doesn't happen. I too have posted in the 100yds challenge. however, my distance was wrong.. actually 100m not 100yds as I had thought (range finder setting was actually in meters) but since the target material doesn't suit the challenge, I will not update my result.
That combo did take advantage of a "tuner" and it showed marked improvements vs without.... even with my new batch of ammo.
However, another barrel has really taken to my new batch of ammo and I am running this without a tuner.
Tuners are a tool... can be helpful but if you dont need it, far easier. Two years ago, the ammo I could get didn't work with my current set ups. A tuner did make them functional.
wrt to alternatives, I have also tested various weights just to see if they would create a change and they did. A machined tuner device is just an easier way to move a weight along a distance. I have used a variety of items including wheel weights and split washers... Not ideal for adjustment but they certainly changed how the barrel/ammo combo reacted on target.
Some barrel/ammo combos are very insensitive to a weight... others, react well. Some combos just need a really heavy weight to see a change... some tuners aren't very heavy
Jerry
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When an opinion differs from someone else's, of course it doesn't mean it is stupid. But it can be. When this happens and it's pointed out some may take offence and mistake it for hubris. When the difference is indistiguishable the result is frustration for anyone who knows better. But that's a digression and perhaps it's more helpful to stick to the topic of tuners.
This thread has some good information but also a lot of bad or vague or incomplete or misleading content.
Tuners are definitely not, as someone has suggested, a "myth," something that doesn't work. They may well not work for someone, and there are reasons to explain that, but it doesn't follow that they don't and can't work. Among serious and knowledgeable rimfire shooters there is unanimity on this question.
Someone also suggested that money would be better spent on good ammo. There's a lot of truth in that. A tuner can't turn poor ammo into something else, it can't make inconsistent ammo consistent. In fact, it can't do anything useful with ammo that isn't already shooting very well.
On top of that, if a rifle barrel is a mass produced factory barrel, it won't benefit significantly from a barrel tuner. Why? Bores of modest quality invariably are not capable of producing consistently good results. This is the reason why the most consistently good results aren't typically produced by mass produced factory rifles. And it must be remembered that not all good barrels will respond equally or even well with a tuner. For example, heavy short barrels don't respond well to tuners. There's good evidence also that neither do very long and heavy ones. Tuners seem to be most effective on good barrels from about 24 - 26" with a thickness of up to .9".
Too many shooters look for a cost-saving way of improving accuracy, but fail to understand that a tuner isn't it. A good rifle/barrel with good ammo will outperform a middling rifle with middling ammo and a tuner every time. There are no shortcuts in rimfire performance.
When shooters are not getting the accuracy performance they wish to achieve, they must first look to getting a good rifle with a good barrel. Then they must look to getting good ammo. Only when a shooter has a good rifle/barrel and ammo that shoots very well should he consider getting a tuner. And once he has one, it usually involves a good amount of testing for the best tuner adjusment. Anything else is just spinning the tires.
This thread has some good information but also a lot of bad or vague or incomplete or misleading content.
Tuners are definitely not, as someone has suggested, a "myth," something that doesn't work. They may well not work for someone, and there are reasons to explain that, but it doesn't follow that they don't and can't work. Among serious and knowledgeable rimfire shooters there is unanimity on this question.
Someone also suggested that money would be better spent on good ammo. There's a lot of truth in that. A tuner can't turn poor ammo into something else, it can't make inconsistent ammo consistent. In fact, it can't do anything useful with ammo that isn't already shooting very well.
On top of that, if a rifle barrel is a mass produced factory barrel, it won't benefit significantly from a barrel tuner. Why? Bores of modest quality invariably are not capable of producing consistently good results. This is the reason why the most consistently good results aren't typically produced by mass produced factory rifles. And it must be remembered that not all good barrels will respond equally or even well with a tuner. For example, heavy short barrels don't respond well to tuners. There's good evidence also that neither do very long and heavy ones. Tuners seem to be most effective on good barrels from about 24 - 26" with a thickness of up to .9".
Too many shooters look for a cost-saving way of improving accuracy, but fail to understand that a tuner isn't it. A good rifle/barrel with good ammo will outperform a middling rifle with middling ammo and a tuner every time. There are no shortcuts in rimfire performance.
When shooters are not getting the accuracy performance they wish to achieve, they must first look to getting a good rifle with a good barrel. Then they must look to getting good ammo. Only when a shooter has a good rifle/barrel and ammo that shoots very well should he consider getting a tuner. And once he has one, it usually involves a good amount of testing for the best tuner adjusment. Anything else is just spinning the tires.
Have you tested short heavy barrels with tuners or just relaying info youve read? I highly doubt youve ever owned a short heavy barrel rimfire let alone done tuner testing with one. Where is the majical 24-26" barrel thing coming from? The Anschutz catalogue or RFC. The .9" is interesting also. Now would that be any specific profile and would the barrel material or fluting be influential on the tuners performance. What about the weight of the tuner or the length. There are so many variables that no one can say weather they work or not. Shoot ur gun and see what happens!!
In rimfire benchrest circles the vast majority of BR rifles sport a 24 - 26” barrel and most of them are .900” in diameter. Lately there have been some experimenting with diameters down to .850” although I’m not seeing a big rush to that size.
Again sticking with RFBR most barrel profiles are straight, a standard Harrell tuner weighs about 8oz and we are seeing guys turn them down to 4oz and having good success.
Not sure what your definition of short and heavy is but I’ve tested barrels from about 16” all the way up to 30”. I’ve always found a good quality long barrel will out group a good quality shorter barrel, at least in my experience.
I think any of them in any order. Get whats in stock and what you can afford.
I find the EC tuner offerings to be a bit hard to figure out when it comes to thread sizes, for the cost it would be nice if you could buy a kit that comes with a few adapters in the box for standard thread pitches instead of ordering expensive adapter rings on top of the cost for the tuner.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Well, we have yet to define what are tiny groups and what's the cost of a "brand new car"
- Chevrolet Spark can be had new for under $12k...
Sorry, couldn't resist
Well, we have yet to define what are tiny groups and what's the cost of a "brand new car"
- Chevrolet Spark can be had new for under $12k...
Sorry, couldn't resist
The thought crossed my mind but somehow I get the feeling jqian has expensive watches, cars, guns and most likely shoes..... and there's nothing wrong with any of it.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
[youtube]Kybk9gyZY14[/youtube]
Just watch the difference in performance of the factory CZ with and without a 'weight'... other stuff that definitely shows the affect a weight can have on a barrel.
also, note his final comments... a tuner will not make crap ammo into match ammo. good ammo and good barrel can be 'tuned' to work, most of the time with a tuner.
Jerry
Just watch the difference in performance of the factory CZ with and without a 'weight'... other stuff that definitely shows the affect a weight can have on a barrel.
also, note his final comments... a tuner will not make crap ammo into match ammo. good ammo and good barrel can be 'tuned' to work, most of the time with a tuner.
Jerry
I enjoy all these videos on YT testing for ammo performance and effects of tuners. I appreciate the effort and expense that goes into them.
I thought the last two videos posted above (in post #32 and #35) did an excellent job and clearly demonstrated the effect of a tuner (a weight moving fore and aft), and both were clear on the caveats about ammunition brands and lots, and the uniqueness of each rifle and barrel.
However I did notice that both testers had variable winds to deal with. But in both cases neither used wind flags to compensate for windage effects during a group.
It's not possible in the great outdoors to control fully for wind unless you measure it and can confirm that its zero. But it is possible to reduce windage effects by holding based on your wind flag reading....if in fact that is what is causing horizontal spread. Because wind flows and swirls in helical flows, it is also possible that wind causes vertical variation. Wind flag reading can also be mis-read by the shooter, inducing more error, e.g. "Damn I held for wind and the round hit exactly where I held!", (ruining the group or score of course! Been there, done that....alot!).
It would be great if we could see tuner tests carried out in the Eley and Lapua testing facilities in their totally controlled tunnels where they (a) first identified a brand and lot that the rifle likes, and (b) clamp the barreled action into a solid fixture so that the shooter, and trigger pull weight, and the stock/chassis are eliminated as variables, and (c) clamp the rifle into a special vise with the barreled action in its stock/chassis to see if that makes a difference.
I thought the last two videos posted above (in post #32 and #35) did an excellent job and clearly demonstrated the effect of a tuner (a weight moving fore and aft), and both were clear on the caveats about ammunition brands and lots, and the uniqueness of each rifle and barrel.
However I did notice that both testers had variable winds to deal with. But in both cases neither used wind flags to compensate for windage effects during a group.
It's not possible in the great outdoors to control fully for wind unless you measure it and can confirm that its zero. But it is possible to reduce windage effects by holding based on your wind flag reading....if in fact that is what is causing horizontal spread. Because wind flows and swirls in helical flows, it is also possible that wind causes vertical variation. Wind flag reading can also be mis-read by the shooter, inducing more error, e.g. "Damn I held for wind and the round hit exactly where I held!", (ruining the group or score of course! Been there, done that....alot!).
It would be great if we could see tuner tests carried out in the Eley and Lapua testing facilities in their totally controlled tunnels where they (a) first identified a brand and lot that the rifle likes, and (b) clamp the barreled action into a solid fixture so that the shooter, and trigger pull weight, and the stock/chassis are eliminated as variables, and (c) clamp the rifle into a special vise with the barreled action in its stock/chassis to see if that makes a difference.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Just increase the sample size of the testing... and use good ammo. Does it repeat? That is really the proof that matters.
Often, the variations in the ammo creates all sorts of 'facts'. Rimfire ammo just isn't all that consistent so use the best stuff you can afford... and sometimes you just get lucky and the lot of mid grade match ammo shoots fantastic.
Note: as good as the SK RM lot was... he still gets flyers quite often. Rimfire ammo is sorted and graded and sold by the amount of 'outs' in any lot... rarely a free lunch
Jerry
Often, the variations in the ammo creates all sorts of 'facts'. Rimfire ammo just isn't all that consistent so use the best stuff you can afford... and sometimes you just get lucky and the lot of mid grade match ammo shoots fantastic.
Note: as good as the SK RM lot was... he still gets flyers quite often. Rimfire ammo is sorted and graded and sold by the amount of 'outs' in any lot... rarely a free lunch
Jerry
