When do you stop increasing powder charge??

Gunneegoogoo

Gunneegoogoo

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Just trying to get a feel for what the reality is regarding when you all stop and drop back the the next lowest node??

I just got the Berger reloading manual and it's VERY conservative, borderline useless. Last night I was reading about a guy on snipers hide who was packing 48gr of varget into his .308, and getting away with it!!! Seems that there is quite a range of opinions, tolerances, and safety.

Of the pressure signs, how do they order in terms of severity? If there's no pressures signs, do you fall back to published pressures as the gold standard?
 
Buy a chronograph. Magnetospeeds are $180 at brownells.

Shoot some quality factory ammo like federal GMM through it to 'baseline' your guns behavior, then load accordingly.

Pressure is velocity, without a chronograph you are guessing.
 
If my loads show ANY of the pressure signs, ever, I back off. If I am at published max loads with no pressure signs I may look for more accuracy with a bit more powder, but if I don't find it, I go back to the most accurate load my testing had found. But I have several rifles that "like" loads that are over what I can find in the load tables. It seems to me that you can't predict which signs will show up first with any given rifle, powder, bullet combination, so I treat any of them as a definite stop sign.

I load to hunt. Reliability, safety, and accuracy trump a few fps, so unless maximum loads beyond any manual give me more useable accuracy, I tend to stay below any pressure signs of any kind, ever.
 
I'm not looking to argue here this is for conversation, but I saw the odd ejector mark yesterday at my starting loads of 42, meanwhile others are blasting away at 45gr, while the Berger manual lists a max of 41.6-ish....and my max yesterday was 43.6 with no signs at all...

I have a chronograph, and it's staying in its case until I find my accurate load and then it's coming out only to make my ballistics tables. What does velocity have to do with it? Would you stop increasing based on velocity?

I'm loading for precision. I agree fully that FPS is not more impt that accuracy or safety, but safety seems to be a matter of opinion. I'd like to get a concensus from the experienced, if one exists.
 
Lots of variables, many are using Lapua palma brass(small primer) usually in order to push the heavier bullets fast.
The chamber and barrel(bore size/groove width and such) can make a lot of difference in what can be loaded before running into pressure issues. Temperature as well.
Usually when I start to see a bit of an ejector mark I stop and back it down a little(.5 to 1gr depending on weather). I only load 1-2 rounds in increments and chrono them to see where to stop before I try to do any groups, no point loading 5-10 of something that is too weak or too hot.
I also have a rain load that is lighter than regular load, and uses 155's. A drop of rain can make a day go crappy real quick, even more so on a hot load.

I think most in FTR using regular large primer brass for the 185 berger are in the 42gr range(+/-1gr or so), usually varget. Palma brass, 44-46gr range.

A chrono is a must have.

Quite frankly, after going through this for the last 3 yrs, doing it again I would just load 155's with 45-46gr N150 or Varget, .020" jump and be done with it. Spend the time shooting and improving skills. I'll be shooting a lot more 155's this season, but keeping some 175's with palma bass for the longer ranges, mostly cause I have it all set to work ok now.
 
The small primer brass has more meat around the hole, a load that will blow out a large primer or at least stretch the brass enough that its now useless, will usually get a bunch of reloadings with still tight primer pockets. Much, much, better brass life.
For some odd reason I find it doesn't seem to show ejector marks as soon as large primer brass. Maybe others can say if they've noticed the same.

A drop of rain/water seems to spike the pressure a lot, a few theories, one is that it takes up some space in the chamber, brass also gets slammed harder against the bolt face since it can't grab the chamber walls much, and water ahead of the bullet may also cause other issues. Or most likely its a combination of the 3. Quick way to ruin brass, or worse. Keep things dry.

I've sometimes had just the 1 that shows signs out of 50. Once its gone its pretty hard to figure out the why. Now if you load a round in a hot barrel/chamber and it sits there a minute or 2(waiting for a target to come back up or have some delay before shooting)...that can do it and it will play with elevation. Keep ammo out of the sun and all that stuff.

I use a hand primer, easy to feel any loose pockets.
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
What does velocity have to do with it?
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Velocity is a result of pressure, and a chronograph is the only practical way for a reloaded to indirectly measure relative pressure.

For example, you are getting ejector marks with what you believe to be a starter load; As you know, that is not normal, but without clocking it, you have no idea if it is due to soft brass, from a tight bore, undersize chamber, short throat etc.. Had you clocked them at a low velocity, you'd know it was soft brass, had they clocked high, you'd know you have tight dimensions, if only the shots that showed ejector marks read high velocities, you'd know that there's something inconsistent with your loading.

By stating that you own a chronograph but won't use it till you've found your accurate load you are leaving a lot of easy information on the table.
 
rgv said:
Velocity is a result of pressure, and a chronograph is the only practical way for a reloaded to indirectly measure relative pressure.

For example, you are getting ejector marks with what you believe to be a starter load; As you know, that is not normal, but without clocking it, you have no idea if it is due to soft brass, from a tight bore, undersize chamber, short throat etc.. Had you clocked them at a low velocity, you'd know it was soft brass, had they clocked high, you'd know you have tight dimensions, if only the shots that showed ejector marks read high velocities, you'd know that there's something inconsistent with your loading.

By stating that you own a chronograph but won't use it till you've found your accurate load you are leaving a lot of easy information on the table.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Out comes the chronograph....
 
SND said:
The small primer brass has more meat around the hole, a load that will blow out a large primer or at least stretch the brass enough that its now useless, will usually get a bunch of reloadings with still tight primer pockets. Much, much, better brass life.
For some odd reason I find it doesn't seem to show ejector marks as soon as large primer brass. Maybe others can say if they've noticed the same.

A drop of rain/water seems to spike the pressure a lot, a few theories, one is that it takes up some space in the chamber, brass also gets slammed harder against the bolt face since it can't grab the chamber walls much, and water ahead of the bullet may also cause other issues. Or most likely its a combination of the 3. Quick way to ruin brass, or worse. Keep things dry.

I've sometimes had just the 1 that shows signs out of 50. Once its gone its pretty hard to figure out the why. Now if you load a round in a hot barrel/chamber and it sits there a minute or 2(waiting for a target to come back up or have some delay before shooting)...that can do it and it will play with elevation. Keep ammo out of the sun and all that stuff.

I use a hand primer, easy to feel any loose pockets.
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Ok. Thx for that.

I have a hand primer too. Great for feel.

I'm gonna try 100 of the Palma brass and see what happens.... I have the primer tools for my 6.5 anyway, . Do you have a load suggestion for varget??
 
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Gunneegoogoo said:
Ok. Thx for that.

I have a hand primer too. Great for feel.

I'm gonna try 100 of the Palma brass and see what happens.... I have the primer tools for my 6.5 anyway, . Do you have a load suggestion for varget??
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Before trying too many things, chrono what you have now and see what velocity you're getting. There's plenty of people shooting the 185gr berger with regular brass and getting awesome groups/scores, even if their velocity isn't as high.
There's no reason that what you got now couldn't work. Worry about that extra 100-200fps once you got this figured out first...
 
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When a few pieces of brass start to get an ejector mark its usually a good time to stop yes, you also don't want to see primer leaking or such things. I never went as far as those who talk of bolts that are hard to open, no reason to.
With a chrono, in some cases you can see a point where you're no longer getting much of a velocity increase, another sign its up there even if other visual pressure signs haven't shown up yet, depends.
Always have good safety glasses.
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
I'm not looking to argue here this is for conversation, but I saw the odd ejector mark yesterday at my starting loads of 42, meanwhile others are blasting away at 45gr, while the Berger manual lists a max of 41.6-ish....and my max yesterday was 43.6 with no signs at all...

I have a chronograph, and it's staying in its case until I find my accurate load and then it's coming out only to make my ballistics tables. What does velocity have to do with it? Would you stop increasing based on velocity?

I'm loading for precision. I agree fully that FPS is not more impt that accuracy or safety, but safety seems to be a matter of opinion. I'd like to get a concensus from the experienced, if one exists.
Click to expand...
You did not mention what bullet and what powder you are using but from the other thread you mentioned 185gr Juggernauts and Varget.
In my Savage 10BA I was pushing 180gr SMK's at 2625 fps which is higher than published data with 42.3gr of Varget.
This was nowhere near a starting load and was over max load.
Keep in mind that I was using a factory barrel which is nowhere near as tight as what I suspect your match chamber to be.

I now have 18 firings from that Lapua brass and it is still going strong.
You may be over at your starting load. Let's not forget that jamming bullets into the lands can also spike pressure.
 
Sorry thump, yes - 185 jugg and varget.

Just ran 20 more rounds. 5 each at 43.5-43.8.

Seems the percentage of ejector marks increases, but no bolt lift issues, or primer signs.

Took out the chrono

Side note - man oh man are the entry level chrono's ever pieces of cheap sh!t.....mines a Caldwell, and it looks, and feels, like something from the dollar store!!!

Apparently I now qualify for a gift on this "Father's Day" now. I think a Labradar may be in the works.

Anyhoo....

I'll put up today's results in the other thread...
 
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