When do you stop increasing powder charge??

None of my pet loads are at described max load, although I have tried it for many of them. I just always seem to get better or more predictable results before I get to the top of what the manual describes.
 
Load single shells increasing in 0.3 grain increments until your primers look like this:

IMG_20130330_193203_zpszbqklqly.jpg


Or your bolt lift becomes stiff.

Now you know your rifles pressure maximum.

Photo credit to yomomma
 
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You should be using your chrono, it is another source of info for your loads. Usually as you go up in charge weight you will see a diminishing return on velocity, as you get to max pressure "usually" you will see velocity gains drop quite a bit.
Lets say at start you are gaining 100fps per grain, as you get close to max you gain 50fps, at max no or little gains. This is a little overstated but generally holds true, once you look for it you will start to see the correlation when working up loads.
Not an absolute rule but works most of the time and is just another tool in your reloading box.
 
I never develop loads without my chrony. I always run factory, usually 17hmr ammo, over it first to check for accurate readings. If for some reason it isn't working right, I don't shoot loads I've worked up. I'm looking to upgrade my chrony because to me it's the most important piece of hand loading equipment.
 
Buy a chronograph. Magnetospeeds are $180 at brownells.

Shoot some quality factory ammo like federal GMM through it to 'baseline' your guns behavior, then load accordingly.

Pressure is velocity, without a chronograph you are guessing.

Kinda sums it up....

Work up, watch the chrono. No chrono? Work with book loads...And just because you don't get pressure signs, doesn't mean you are in the clear. More info is better,and if you want to ne more than a person that puts bullets over powder, you need a chrono. Or better- a LABRADAR ;)
 
You should be using your chrono, it is another source of info for your loads. Usually as you go up in charge weight you will see a diminishing return on velocity, as you get to max pressure "usually" you will see velocity gains drop quite a bit.
Lets say at start you are gaining 100fps per grain, as you get close to max you gain 50fps, at max no or little gains. This is a little overstated but generally holds true, once you look for it you will start to see the correlation when working up loads.
Not an absolute rule but works most of the time and is just another tool in your reloading box.

I've seen that diminishing gain, no question. Today I actually lost velocity from 43.7 to 43.8....
 
Interesting that a chrony would be considered so important to some. I have zero intent to buy one, I don't see how it could help me.

Dependant on the type of reloading I'm sure.
 
No easier way to know what different powders are giving for velocity/energy, mostly when developing weird loads that there's no data for. Also helps see how a barrel performs compared to another vs similar loads.
Not that everyone needs to get curious about that sort of thing.
 
Agree with Berger's data being seriously underloaded.

I love their bullets, but they are also a great example of how "Lawyerizing" reloading data can render it almost useless.

I completely ignore their maximum loads, and just work up carefully with their recommended powders and look for pressure signs and velocity gains on my chrony...
 
I load for accuracy, most often i find a accuracy sweet spot less than maximum. A few rifles like hot loads. Fortunately i have a few rifles.....its effectively going 6 iron...to 7....to 9>>>>pushing a 30 cal bullet in a 308, 30-06, and 300wm. Not the same as a benchrest guy answer, measured in .1 moa. But then i am a hunter, the rifles get a premium or accurate bullet that shoots 1 to .5 moa, and i go make something leak.
 
I've seen that diminishing gain, no question. Today I actually lost velocity from 43.7 to 43.8....

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. I have seen the velocity continue increasing at a uniform rate until pressure signs started appearing. I have also seen groups keep shrinking as pressure signs appeared.
 
Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. I have seen the velocity continue increasing at a uniform rate until pressure signs started appearing. I have also seen groups keep shrinking as pressure signs appeared.

I agree. Waiting for that mythical "diminishing gain" think to happen may lead to other issues. Nothing much in shooting is "always". I don't believe there is any sign that is always a first sign, so you can't wait for any one of them to appear. You must watch for ANY sign of pressure (and flattened primers may, or may not, be a pressure sign). Going beyond published figures is not to be done casually, but many guns can do so safely if the operator is paying attention. A chronograph is a good tool, but it too can be unreliable if it is given too much credibility. Lots of loads will shoot faster than published data for that load in specific guns, and although pressure is essential for velocity, velocity is not a reliable measure of pressure.
 
Load single shells increasing in 0.3 grain increments until your primers look like this:

IMG_20130330_193203_zpszbqklqly.jpg


Or your bolt lift becomes stiff.

Now you know your rifles pressure maximum.

Photo credit to yomomma

Excessive headspace can create the same case/primer result and NOT be a cause of pressure so...

Quick thoughts and you can refer to SAAMI and reloading manuals for more data. There will be CUP rating but that gets confusing so will just stay with PSI which most understand. ALL SAAMI registered chamberings have a max pressure rating. They are no where near the same for a whole host of reasons. CIP (European regulating body) can have a different pressure rating for the "same" chambering.

Standard pressures typically top out at 56,000psi. The 308 Winchester is one of these standard chamberings. This group has the widest range of pressures as it covers the vast majority of chamberings from the beginning of smokeless powder to today. This is not a universal rating as you will see by looking at any reloading manual that lists pressures for with their powder data. It is truly all over the map and yes, you can find many contradictions depending on firearm and era of data.

Magnum pressures typically top out at 65,000psi. As these are affecting post WWII chamberings for the most part, there is more consistency in the pressure ratings with any chambering considered "magnum" BUT there are most certainly exceptions like the 375 H&H 'magnum" which is actually loaded to very low max pressures.

Proof pressures. These are used to test actions and rifles to ensure they will handle an overpressure situation without risk to end user.... ie the kaboom that doesn't cause the gun to come apart. This is not an operating pressure but a test to ensure product safety. Typically ranging up to 80,000psi... the test ammo is heavily regulated, certified and typically sourced from a specific lab. Many factory rifles get a couple of these rds before leaving the factory.... so yes, they pop out of most current factory rifle without muss or fuss. I have a couple of these cases and there is no outward appearance of pressure.

Many modern components ie brass, primers and powders, are designed to work and usually thrive at magnum pressure levels. Pretty much all LR competition shooting is in this range of pressure so yes, competitors are going beyond book loading when loading standard pressure chamberings like the 308W. Most will find best accuracy in the magnum pressure arena which is in the 60/62,000psi range. With careful set up, work up and testing, many competitors reap the benefits of better performance AND accuracy when going to what is essentially +P loading.

Problem lies in components that are "overly" strong and vault tight actions that do not give expected pressure signs even at elevated pressures. Here shooters can assume they are safe and have some amazing results... but there is no free lunch. Just because you do not see pressure, it is there. The only real way to know is to put a pressure trace on the set up and test in real time... velocity is useful but definitely not the end all wrt to confirming the actual pressure in the pipe.

But if the speeds of a set up vastly exceeds what is considered typical, safe assumption pressures are way off side... no magic formulas in the world of civilian reloading... there are millions of dollars in research trying to find it. The stuff we find on a shelf is not part of this "good stuff".

Personally, I feel components that do not show pressure signs past magnum pressures should be banned for safety reasons but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

Why bother when these cases pop out of an action easy as can be? AND shoot fantastic groups at distance with vastly improved ballistics?

METAL FATIGUE.... that's why. What I saw in a report on R&D for a new receiver was the duty cycle of the metal itself. When kept at standard pressure, the duty cycle was massive.. certainly, more then anyone sport shooting would ever use up. Even someone with access to a belt fed solution would have a hard time breaking the receiver.

Magnum pressure, the duty cycle dropped significantly but still more then a few lifetimes of shooting.

Proof pressures and things fell a ton... to the point that someone could easily shoot that many rds in a few years.

Higher then that and duty cycle was scaringly short.

I have no way to know how the massive range of materials and designs in modern actions will respond to wear and tear but there is no doubt that excessive pressure stresses the STEEL in the action.

How hot you load to is a personal thing but be aware that a failure has implications to you, the ones around you and the places that we want to shoot at.

YMMV.

Jerry
 
And here I thought I put enough , another source of info, usually, generally holds true, and the ending , Not an absolute rule but works most of the time and is just another tool in your reloading box. Oh well.
 
And here I thought I put enough , another source of info, usually, generally holds true, and the ending , Not an absolute rule but works most of the time and is just another tool in your reloading box. Oh well.

I got my chrono out after your suggestion....don't feel that I'm not listening!!! I'm taking it all in....
 
Below measuring base expansion just above the extractor groove as a pressure sign. Just remember brass hardness and how the base is constructed effects this expansion.


Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/simple-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/

Below is a Lake City Military 5.56 cases, the flash hole web is thicker than many .223 cases. This added thickness adds strength to the base of the case. Meaning less radial expansion when the case is fired, and on top of this the 5.56 has harder brass in the base of the case. So measuring the amount of base expansion will vary between case brands.

webthickness_zps54979hxw.jpg


Below a exaggerated example of base expansion that occurs at the unsupported base of the case.

base%20expanshion_zpss3c0gjcm.png
 
Great idea except in match rifles, the case head is always fully supported.

Some rifles can run extremely high pressures without any case head expansion... and that is part of the problem

Jerry

Mystic Precision

That explains the photo below I copied from the accurateshooter reloading forum. The poster said he increased the load until he had brass flow into the ejector and then backed off one or two grains of powder. This poster was shooting long range and wanted to see how far he could push the brass in his match rifle. And since I do not have any match type rifles I did not know that they fully supported the case head.

Thanks for clearing that up.

marks_zps63d0459a.jpg
 
In a properly set up match action, running a load that hot likely only required two fingers to cycle the bolt.

It is scary how much pressure these actions can mask... great engineering for sure and amazing quality machining but they are now letting the heavy handed reloader go crazy.

The action are still made out of the same steel as most factory actions so....

Jerry
 
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