When is 'enough gun' 'too much gun'?

razorbeck said:
No its not hard to believe but there is also the law of diminishing returns
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Sure; though I suspect we put the cut-off at different levels. Up to the point where it kicks in in ernest those increased returns only cost pennies for a bit more powder. Reasonable places to think about quitting are .257 Weatherby for 25s, probably the .264 WM
for 6.5s (though I'm liking the 6.5-300 Win) , and Weatherby again for the .270. The STW, 28 Nosler and 7-300 are good places to
quit in the 7s, and Win and Weatherby sort of took the 30s measure a long time ago. The WSMs sort of have a lock on the short actions.

Though I own and have used the milder cartridges a lot I see little actual point in it. As far as that goes, there's very few reasons for me to grab a .25 or 6.5 off my own racks when there's 7s and 30s there.
 
MiG25 said:
Too much gun is when you can't shoot it or pack it.
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Ayup. I knew a couple guys that were scared spitless of their own guns. They had the scope bites to prove why. They simply couldn't shoot what they had.

Recall reading an article about a African Pro Hunter that had a bunch of similar tales of clients coming out, over-gunned. He related the story of one fellow that he had , who plowed a furrow several feet in front of his toes with the first shot, and only about half way to the very annoyed elephant with his second. PH said the client tipped him very well afterwards!

There are some pretty well reasoned arguments in favor of bigger, larger cases, faster moving bullets, etc., but if you can't shoot them accurately enough to get the job done, they are not doing you any good.
 
I met an American with whom I shared an African hunt camp on the plains game portion of my hunt there. He was using a 7Mag, hardly a monstrous kicker, and knew all the numbers related to it: fps, BC, trajectory, grains of powder, energy, etc. He sounded like one of the walking catalogs on WildTV.

He returned from sight-in with a vicious scope-bite on his forehead, and a long story explaining it. As the week progressed, he did a lot of shooting, a lot of missing, and he kept on adding to his collection of contusions. By the end of the week he looked like he had been beaten with a ball-peen hammer. He showed more damage than most of the animals that were taken.

Don't know about tipping, but his PH got a good laugh out of him (behind his back). :)
 
I guess it all depends on how you hunt, as well. Many guys shoot big game through both shoulders to "anchor" the game. It's a highly personal decision, and does ensure a humane kill. Problem is, especially with the fast-moving magnums, you can waste almost the entire front of the animal. Personally, I always try to keep meat damage to a minimum. This fall, I passed up a shot on a nice deer because I couldn't be sure of not wasting a lot of meat. It's also why I like a big, heavy, slower-moving bullet, so you can eat right up to the hole. Nothing wrong with an "anchor" shot, but I don't do it.
 
I am a confirmed shoulder shooter, to hell with a little wasted meat. I'd rather have it drop in it's tracks than lose the whole animal due to my poor tracking skills. I learned a long time ago, that I'm a better shooter than I am a tracker..........I also learned hunting elephants that I'm a better shooter than I am a runner, but that's a whole 'nother story.......
I agree with DL that "too much gun" is relative only to the shooter not the shootee.........no such thing as too dead, but I can sure as hell tell you there is such a thing as not dead enough..........
 
I do the 'both shoulders' shot on bears to anchor them (I have this aversion to tracking lung shot bears in Christmas trees so thick you can't see your own feet) but deer I try to put one behind the shoulders and they generally don't go far.Never had to track a lung shot deer more than 20- 30 yards with my swede ,and most never even went that far.For my hunting, I am an advocate of soft nosed bullets at moderate velocity,they just seem to work
 
My first rifle was a .444 and I've tried a lot of smaller cartridges with varied success. Now after 30 years I really like the quality, accuracy and authority of my .500 Jeffery. I wish I'd have found the cartridge decades ago.

I don't believe there's such a thing as being overgunned as long as you control the rifle and not the other way around.
 
Meat loss doing shoulder shots? I dropped my Bull Moose this past season with my .375 - which some might say is being over-gunned - with a shoulder shot as I always strive for and didn't lose any meat. A bit of bone and ligament damage is about all. ;)

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I'm not denying in a perfect world people can handle recoil by practicing a lot,but chances are most hunters are casual shooters with many other things to do with their time and don't get to the range that often. For these guys, a moderate recoil rifle is a better choice to make a humane kill ,which is really what it's all about...
 
As for wasting meat my 25/06 with 117 gr interlock btsp at 3150 fps jellos way more meat than my 458 wm even when I use Remington bulk 405 gr fnsp at 2400 fps.
I shot a 300 lb bear with my 25/06 and 120 gr positive expanding cxp2 Winchester Grey box load at 80 yards right behind the shoulder slightly higher than half way up the body. Had to clear some shrubs. It was a fat bear and I was ready for a second shot that wasn't needed. I down right flattened her. My hunting buddies used to laugh at my 25/06 but after skinning her out it looked like she swallowed a bomb. 6 broken ribs going in no exit. Fist sized hole in the fat. Liquified the heart and lungs and even slipped a vertebrae out of place. Blood shot meat from the shoulder to the hip on the hit side.
The bear I shot point blank with my 458 wm only had a 3" tunnel of destruction thru it. The bear I shot with my 45/70 at 12' with the same bullet had a 2" wide tunnel thru the body no other damage to meat even when breaking shoulders.

I shot a deer with my 25/06 thru the ribs. I held dead center of the broadside chest as I was out of breath. Hit dead center. The fact is a small speedy bullet damaged more meat then a big slower one
Dead is dead. But light fast bullets ill wait for a lung shot. I prefer the shoulder shot and tend to use calibers capable of sending big heavy bullets thru both shoulders. I like to get close and I like to see the animal drop. I also feel more confident knowing if the animal turns and runs I can send another bullet into the vitals from any angle.
 
Heard of a similar example to your Bear - a guy used a .257 Wby. Mag. on Moose and complained about the huge volume of bloodshot meat. Not surprised if the bullet impacts at 3500+ fps. Don't think it dropped on the 1st shot. :eek:
 
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ratherbefishin said:
Where once the moderate velocity/ caliber rifles were the weapon of choice for deer hunting,it seems that nothing less than the latest hyper rifles will do....but I seriously wonder how much real advantage to the average deer hunter they offer? I 'm not talking about special situations where grizzlies are likely to be encountered ,or long shots are more the rule than the exception, but in my own experience,most of my deer were killed well UNDER 50 yards...I knew an old guy who used a Winchestor 25/35 with great success on his wood lot.Compared to that I was 'over gunned' with my 303 on typical coastal Blacktails .Today I pretty much just carry a 6.5x55 swede with a fixed M-8 4x Leopold and just regular SP ammunition and the deer seem to drop just as dead with that as the latest 'must have' rifles capable of shooting deer 1000 yards away..
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Simple. It is too much when you are no longer able to effectively use it against the intended game due to excessive recoil or muzzle blast for your capabilities. This is totally dependant on the shooter, not the firearm itself. I personally have used cartridges ranging from the 6mm PPC to 50 BMG to hunt deer. All worked as intended when I did my part.
 
I just hope they never develop a rifle cartridge as big and as fragile as some of the egos here! It would be the size of a cannon and fall apart when it leaves the muzzle.

Shoot what you like, and who cares what others think.
 
Notice there is never a thread started by fans of the larger, faster or larger and faster wondering why some hunters are so eager to use the smallest thing around? It is always the other way around.
 
Dogleg said:
Notice there is never a thread started by fans of the larger, faster or larger and faster wondering why some hunters are so eager to use the smallest thing around? It is always the other way around.
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I couldn’t agree more..... but I also think there is such a thing as overkill......

The CPX 1,2 and 3 scale is close to being spot on in my opinion..... sure, we can blur the lines a bit....

Bottom line, there is no honour in taking a doe with a 50 bmg vs a 30-06.... and there is no extra man credits for taking a deer with a 22 magnum.....

Honour comes from taking an animal cleanly and effectively using a mechanism that ensures the animal doesn’t suffer.....
 
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