Do you think it’s showing these similar results because all the guns have been obviously very accurate rifles or you wouldn’t still own them. I wonder if this trend would continue with a broader range of rifles? Would lesser barrels still shoot comparably similar results even though the groups will average larger but will the averages remain similarly close. Do you think one of your tested lots would show similar results if shot out of say Savage bolt,Ruger bolt and Winchester lever , just an example but you get the point.
When looking for .22LR match ammo question
- Thread starter grauhanen
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If I understand the question to be will a broader range of rifles with lesser barrels shoot the same lots similarly, I think the answer is yes.
To explain why, when "less accurate" rifles (if I may refer to them that way) shoot good lots of ammo, the results may be the very good for those rifles even though the results won't be especially good in the grand scheme of things. With a barrel that can only do so well, no large samples of results will be very good. With any ammo, of course, there is the chance for random acts of accuracy, but these will not be frequent.
A problem when comparing results that are not especially good is that they can all look similar and it becomes more difficult to know when results may be more due to the middling barrel or to the ammo itself. Good ammo will shoot as well as any rifle barrel will allow.
If good ammo is good ammo in all good barrels, then a bad lot of ammo will be a bad lot in all good barrels. No barrels can fix bad ammo behaviour. Barrels can shoot the same lots differently because not all barrels are equal.
There are several factors that influence results between rifles shooting the same lots of .22LR match ammo.
When shooters see different rifles shooting the same ammo with different results, the capability of the rifle itself is one factor.
So too are differing conditions from one time to the next. This plays a big role. The further the distance to the target, the greater the influence of air movements between shooter and target. The further the target, the more difficult it is to evaluate air movements. Conditions may not be equal when comparisons are made.
In addition, while ammo may come from the same lot, no one can shoot the same ammo more than once. The performance of rounds from the same lot can differ from one box to the next. For example, not only on target but over the chronograph it's seen that boxes from the same lot often differ in ES and SD figures. These may influence results the further the target distance.
Another important factor is the sample size of results compared. Comparing a small number of groups can be very misleading. It's necessary to compare larger samples of results to get more reliable information. To illustrate, one target showing three groups at 100 yards may be very good, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is truly representative of the ammo performance.
There are several factors that influence results between rifles shooting the same lots of .22LR match ammo.
When shooters see different rifles shooting the same ammo with different results, the capability of the rifle itself is one factor.
So too are differing conditions from one time to the next. This plays a big role. The further the distance to the target, the greater the influence of air movements between shooter and target. The further the target, the more difficult it is to evaluate air movements. Conditions may not be equal when comparisons are made.
In addition, while ammo may come from the same lot, no one can shoot the same ammo more than once. The performance of rounds from the same lot can differ from one box to the next. For example, not only on target but over the chronograph it's seen that boxes from the same lot often differ in ES and SD figures. These may influence results the further the target distance.
Another important factor is the sample size of results compared. Comparing a small number of groups can be very misleading. It's necessary to compare larger samples of results to get more reliable information. To illustrate, one target showing three groups at 100 yards may be very good, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is truly representative of the ammo performance.
You guys are killin me!! I really wanted to jump into this conversation but everyone chiming in here is obviously a PHD in physics…and I struggled with introduction math 1A6 permutations and combinations in the first year of university.
If we do the math and input ALL of the variables that effect probabilities then we haven’t even scratched the surface of determining the outcomes of litterly 100,000,000plus potential accuracy results.
….i don’t overthink it anymore and when I buy a new toy I shoot it with a variety of at least 6 different premium loads. If it holds close to 1MOA at 100 yards I’m happy and it’s a keeper. If it’s a decent bolt action that is expected to do well but fails I’ll play with it for a bit. If things don’t improve it gets traded in on something else like a fine shotgun or air rifle. It’s like a relationship, not a marriage. If it’s good it’s great, if not it’s gone to frustrate someone else.
….I WILL be following this thread because it is a brain tease and you always do learn something valuable whenever a fellow CGNr re-emerges from the 22LR rabbit hole…. Cheers
If we do the math and input ALL of the variables that effect probabilities then we haven’t even scratched the surface of determining the outcomes of litterly 100,000,000plus potential accuracy results.
….i don’t overthink it anymore and when I buy a new toy I shoot it with a variety of at least 6 different premium loads. If it holds close to 1MOA at 100 yards I’m happy and it’s a keeper. If it’s a decent bolt action that is expected to do well but fails I’ll play with it for a bit. If things don’t improve it gets traded in on something else like a fine shotgun or air rifle. It’s like a relationship, not a marriage. If it’s good it’s great, if not it’s gone to frustrate someone else.
….I WILL be following this thread because it is a brain tease and you always do learn something valuable whenever a fellow CGNr re-emerges from the 22LR rabbit hole…. Cheers
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- New Brunswick
I cannot even imagine shooting 1000s of ten shot groups and recording the data. I suppose to the inquiring mind there is a reward to be had from the exercise and I do appreciate some of the information revealed. (ie here we have 5 extremely accurate BR class rifles but the often reported .5 MOA groups seem to be missing ?) I do thank Glen for the charts.
If it is correct that a quality lot of ammo will give similarly good performance from a broad spectrum of guns, would that not pretty much negate the benefit of lot testing by Lapua and Eley. I mean would it not be a lot simpler to walk into the test centre and just say "I'd like to buy two cases of the stuff that shot the best this week." I'm sure that those manufacturers have records indicating the performance of every lot tested. Just go down the list from best to next best buy your ammo and dispense with the time and expense of all that testing. Just let all of those fellows who preceded you pay for the testing.
I have a lot of fun when I go shooting. For me, doing all the work of finding the ultimate unicorn ammo and then repeating the process after shooting whatever number of thousands of rounds I can afford to buy, would strip out all of the FUN. As the yanks say YMMV.
If it is correct that a quality lot of ammo will give similarly good performance from a broad spectrum of guns, would that not pretty much negate the benefit of lot testing by Lapua and Eley. I mean would it not be a lot simpler to walk into the test centre and just say "I'd like to buy two cases of the stuff that shot the best this week." I'm sure that those manufacturers have records indicating the performance of every lot tested. Just go down the list from best to next best buy your ammo and dispense with the time and expense of all that testing. Just let all of those fellows who preceded you pay for the testing.
I have a lot of fun when I go shooting. For me, doing all the work of finding the ultimate unicorn ammo and then repeating the process after shooting whatever number of thousands of rounds I can afford to buy, would strip out all of the FUN. As the yanks say YMMV.
- Location
- New Brunswick
That should read .5 MOA averages.
The smallest of groups are in the data, as are the largest ones. It should be kept in mind that the results shown in the charts are averages of ten 10-shot groups. That is to say, ten groups are averaged. While some of those ten groups may be near .5 MOA, others will be much more.
If good lots are good lots across a broad spectrum of guns, it's important to keep in mind that a broad spectrum of guns may not all shoot equally well or especially well. Good results are only possible with good rifles/barrels. With the exception of random acts of accuracy, all rifles with middling barrels can on average only produce middling results.
With regard to how to pick ammo at a test center, something which we don't have in Canada, it might be helpful to see the results obtained with a variety of rifles. Technicians at the test centers are no doubt aware of how different lots have performed across a number of rifles. They would know which lots, if any, are egregiously poor performers in many rifles. Those lots when they exist should attract little interest by all looking for ammo. Fortunately there shouldn't be many of them.
It's the more typical, more average lots, that are more often seen at test centers, and indeed at ammo retailers who sell in quantity. Over the course of testing in different rifles these lots will exhibit all their performance characteristics.
The thing is that most lots -- even the top tier varieties -- are not always uniformly consistent. Many lots will have a range of performance characteristics, with some boxes performing better or worse than others. Some boxes will be remarkably consistent throughout, producing satisfactory to very good results. Others will be less satisfactory, with more larger groups at 50 and even outliers at 100. Some will have a mix of both.
When shooters test ammo and they get a box of ammo that is more consistent than others from the same lot, the shooter may believe that all the ammo in that lot will perform the same way. He may or may not be right.
It's the much less commonly seen lots that are consistently uniform throughout, with all boxes performing very well in good barrels. Unfortunately, these lots -- what BR shooters sometimes call "killer lots" -- are not seen very often. They are rare and I doubt we get these in Canada.
When serious rimfire benchrest shooters select their ammo, they say they like to have a large number of lots from which to choose. They report they have a chance of finding ammo that shoots well enough when there are at least ten lots of top tier ammo to test. They all may shoot fairly well, but maybe one in ten might be capable of winning a match.
The thing is that most lots -- even the top tier varieties -- are not always uniformly consistent. Many lots will have a range of performance characteristics, with some boxes performing better or worse than others. Some boxes will be remarkably consistent throughout, producing satisfactory to very good results. Others will be less satisfactory, with more larger groups at 50 and even outliers at 100. Some will have a mix of both.
When shooters test ammo and they get a box of ammo that is more consistent than others from the same lot, the shooter may believe that all the ammo in that lot will perform the same way. He may or may not be right.
It's the much less commonly seen lots that are consistently uniform throughout, with all boxes performing very well in good barrels. Unfortunately, these lots -- what BR shooters sometimes call "killer lots" -- are not seen very often. They are rare and I doubt we get these in Canada.
When serious rimfire benchrest shooters select their ammo, they say they like to have a large number of lots from which to choose. They report they have a chance of finding ammo that shoots well enough when there are at least ten lots of top tier ammo to test. They all may shoot fairly well, but maybe one in ten might be capable of winning a match.
Indeed. Think of ammo randomness when results on one day aren't repeated the next. Think of it when two rifles produce different results with the same lot of match ammo.
There's much less mysterious and hard to understand about rimfire than often claimed.
There's much less mysterious and hard to understand about rimfire than often claimed.
Had a good time at range yesterday. 2 different lots of SK+. 3 10 rd groups of each one average.466 other .576. I think that is the best I’ve shot with the second group. (50 yds). Next to me was 3 generations shooting 22s, the 11 yr old was interested in my Anschutz so I set him up and he fired a very nice 5 rd group. His dad and grandfather were very proud.
The Anschutz 1712 has been shot with what I have on hand.
The Cooper JSR lucked into what was currently available and the test will be completed when those two lots are depleted. This is the rifle my granddaughter is using as fast pitch took a priority.
A good barrel is a good barrel, and most ammo will shoot well in it. That said, there is a "best" ammo for every gun - trick is to find the best ammo you can afford to shoot day in and day out. If you're shopping for match ammo, a sample pack from Tesro etc is a good place to start.
Some people have guns that shoot one or two types of ammo really really well, and others are lousy. When you hear that, keep in mind that not everyone has the same definition of "accurate." For instance, lousy for a benchrest shooter is probably pretty damn good for most everyone else.
A good lot is a good lot and it shoots well in all barrels. On the other hand, a poor lot is a poor lot and it won't shoot well regardless of barrel.
The important thing to keep in mind is that good ammo has certain characteristics that allow it to perform very well. When a lot doesn't have those defects, or only very few of them, it will shoot well. All good lots of match ammo share those characteristics and all have few defects.
When an ammo lot has defects, no barrel can correct them and make the ammo shoot well. There aren't arbitrary or random ammo defects that will show poor results in some barrels but improve them in others. For example, a defect such as wide ES and high SD figures, can't be corrected by any barrel. A poor lot is a poor lot and can't shoot well in any rifle.
When a shooter finds a lot that has those characteristics that make for good performance, which include consistent low ES and SD figures as well as consistent bullet form, shape, size, and weight, consistent seating and crimping, he will have a lot that shoots well in all good barrels. Of course, not all good lots will perform equally well because not all good lots are equal.
In regards to TESRO, the sampling package is small and you may luck out and receive a velocity your rifle prefers.
They are generally mixes of five brands but they are tail ends of a lot.
The probability of finding any quantity of the lot you tested is remote but it is a starting point.
On checking their site, the mixes vary so one would want to know what they are getting or wanting.
The prices are steep as the High En package contains Eley, RWS and Lapua. Since these companies use different lubes, after testing one box the barrel should be cleaned between brands for better evaluation.
They are generally mixes of five brands but they are tail ends of a lot.
The probability of finding any quantity of the lot you tested is remote but it is a starting point.
On checking their site, the mixes vary so one would want to know what they are getting or wanting.
The prices are steep as the High En package contains Eley, RWS and Lapua. Since these companies use different lubes, after testing one box the barrel should be cleaned between brands for better evaluation.
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IMO it's better to buy a few bricks from Tenda or whoever has FREE shipping at a price point. As Horesman2 says, the samplers are 'odds 'n ends. I've been able to sell 'unwanted quality ammo' to others at the range who are not as 'finicky' as my rifles. Some people will not buy a whole brick, but over time it sells. PS - T has Eley on hand right now but the only SK seems to be the Magazine, which I've found almost as good as the SK+. I use it for 'practice' at only $10/100 plus tax.
For readers in general, rifles/barrels don't have a preference for velocities. Unfortunately, that's an old wives tale that gets repeated too often. Regardless of MVs printed on a box, .22LR match ammo either shoots or it doesn't.
Consider that the printed velocity on a box of Eley, for example, is an average of MVs supposedly obtained in Eley test barrels. It's not the muzzle velocity of each round. Any box of ammo with the same MV printed on it will have a range of MVs, some with spreads that are quite large. Furthermore, most lots of match ammo will have an overlap of MVs. For example, two lots with MV averages of 1060 and 1075 fps, will have many rounds with very similar MVs.
In fact two different lots of ammo with the same MV printed on the box can easily have different average MVs in the same rifle/barrel. In addition, a box with a certain MV on it will not shoot to the same average in all rifles, regardless of barrel length.
Consider that the printed velocity on a box of Eley, for example, is an average of MVs supposedly obtained in Eley test barrels. It's not the muzzle velocity of each round. Any box of ammo with the same MV printed on it will have a range of MVs, some with spreads that are quite large. Furthermore, most lots of match ammo will have an overlap of MVs. For example, two lots with MV averages of 1060 and 1075 fps, will have many rounds with very similar MVs.
In fact two different lots of ammo with the same MV printed on the box can easily have different average MVs in the same rifle/barrel. In addition, a box with a certain MV on it will not shoot to the same average in all rifles, regardless of barrel length.
