Whew! That was close!

[H4831]

Come on, OP, look harder for that rifle cartridge case!
And if you find the case the primer will be seated in it. You are all aware that I firmly believe the primer did not fire, but even if it did, it would still be seated in the case, because there is no reason, whatsoever, that if it fired it would be blown out of the case.
I believe most people think there is actually more power in a primer than there actually is. We constantly hear of a cartridge loaded with no powder and the primer drove the bullet to some point down the barrel. One day when I had nothing better to do I figured out that I would use different primers and see the difference in the power of the primer, by the distance the bullet was driven down the barrel. So I loaded a 45-70 case with a primer but no powder and seated a 405 grain cast bullet. I loaded three like this, using a large pistol primer in one, a standard prime in another and a magnum primer in the third. None of the bullets in the test were crimped.
I pulled the trigger on the pistol primer, very clearly heard the firing pin strike, but no other sound, whatsoever. The cartridge came out of the chamber just as it had gone in. Bullet never moved. I then tried the standard primer with the exact same results. Pulled the trigger on the magnum primer, heard the firing pin hit but no other sound. None of the bullets had moved. I pulled the bullets and the cases were loaded with soot, indicating each primer had duly fired, but nothing happened.
I then repeated the test, using a 30-06 and 180 grain bullets. Results were exactly the same, no bullet had moved, not even the slightest, but each primer had fired and spread its soot in the case.
Next I went to the 243 and loaded the three different primers with a bullet but no powder. I should have been using new cases, instead I was just using my used cases, so of course some may have gripped the bullet tighter than others.
With the 243 neither the pistol primer nor the standard primer moved a bullet. When I shot the magnum primer I heard the noise and a sooted up empty came out of the chamber. I pushed a dowel down the barrel, just touched the bullet and it fell out of the chamber with marks on it just at the ogive.
I am not the slightest interested in someone saying what military primers do, or don't do. I was testing the ordinary components that hand loaders use and the results, while at complete odds to what we usually read, are never the less quite enlightening.

 

[MajorMalcontent]

Come on, OP, look harder for that rifle cartridge case!
And if you find the case the primer will be seated in it. You are all aware that I firmly believe the primer did not fire, but even if it did, it would still be seated in the case, because there is no reason, whatsoever, that if it fired it would be blown out of the case.
I believe most people think there is actually more power in a primer than there actually is. We constantly hear of a cartridge loaded with no powder and the primer drove the bullet to some point down the barrel. One day when I had nothing better to do I figured out that I would use different primers and see the difference in the power of the primer, by the distance the bullet was driven down the barrel. So I loaded a 45-70 case with a primer but no powder and seated a 405 grain cast bullet. I loaded three like this, using a large pistol primer in one, a standard prime in another and a magnum primer in the third.
I pulled the trigger on the pistol primer, very clearly heard the firing pin strike, but no other sound, whatsoever. The cartridge came out of the chamber just as it had gone in. Bullet never moved. I then tried the standard primer with the exact same results. Pulled the trigger on the magnum primer, heard the firing pin hit but no other sound. None of the bullets had moved. I pulled the bullets and the cases were loaded with soot, indicating each primer had duly fired, but nothing happened.
I then repeated the test, using a 30-06 and 180 grain bullets. Results were exactly the same, no bullet had moved, not even the slightest, but each primer had fired and spread its soot in the case.
Next I went to the 243 and loaded the three different primers with a bullet but no powder. I should have been using new cases, instead I was just using my used cases, so of course some may have gripped the bullet tighter than others.
With the 243 neither the pistol primer nor the standard primer moved a bullet. When I shot the magnum primer I heard the noise and a sooted up empty came out of the chamber. I pushed a dowel down the barrel, just touched the bullet and it fell out of the chamber with marks on it just at the ogive.
I am not the slightest interested in someone saying what military primers do, or don't do. I was testing the ordinary components that hand loaders use and the results, while at complete odds to what we usually read, are never the less quite enlightening.

That is enlightening, and I therefore agree with you that whether the primer in my case fired or not, the primer will likely still be in the pocket based on your tests. I hope I find the case, but my basement is unfinished and there's a lot a miscellania (is that a word?) all over the place. And if I do, I will definitely update my thread as to the status of the primer in question.

 

[MajorMalcontent]

H4831, still haven't located my missing cartridge case, but I presume you've seen the most recent account here on CGN of an identical occurence?

And interestingly enough, the primer in his case WAS blasted out of the primer pocket.

 

[Dogleg]

If the sequence went tap, tap, tap oh I think I spilled some powder it didn't go off.

If the sequence was more like tap, tap, tap BANG WTF just happened it went off.


If you find the case the primer isn't going to be in it. The only reason primers stay in fired ammo is the bolt face stops them. Even then, they come part way out then the case reseats it when it slams into the boltface.


Richard Lee chronographed some exploded primers for fun; and apparently because he had that kind of time. Speeds were about the same as a .22 LR.

 

[156821]

Major, I believe what you say to be true. I had an incident myself with a primer go off while using an inertia puller. Mine had different circumstances as the primer was not fully seated. There were some on here that just couldn't fathom this happening. I didn't just make it up for some cgn drama. Good luck finding your case.

 

[kawicrash]

Just a thought, as I know a lot less about reloading then others in this thread, but I could always smell a primer if it was ignited i.e. shooting an empty case with a live primer. With no smell and no soot, ignition is highly improbable.

Great point.
It's like when I'm working on a job where people are using Hilti or Ramset powder actuated tools, it smells just like shooting a .22 (which it pretty much actually is) I always pick up that smell.

 

[fingers284]

Come on, OP, look harder for that rifle cartridge case!
And if you find the case the primer will be seated in it. You are all aware that I firmly believe the primer did not fire, but even if it did, it would still be seated in the case, because there is no reason, whatsoever, that if it fired it would be blown out of the case.
I believe most people think there is actually more power in a primer than there actually is. We constantly hear of a cartridge loaded with no powder and the primer drove the bullet to some point down the barrel. One day when I had nothing better to do I figured out that I would use different primers and see the difference in the power of the primer, by the distance the bullet was driven down the barrel. So I loaded a 45-70 case with a primer but no powder and seated a 405 grain cast bullet. I loaded three like this, using a large pistol primer in one, a standard prime in another and a magnum primer in the third. None of the bullets in the test were crimped.
I pulled the trigger on the pistol primer, very clearly heard the firing pin strike, but no other sound, whatsoever. The cartridge came out of the chamber just as it had gone in. Bullet never moved. I then tried the standard primer with the exact same results. Pulled the trigger on the magnum primer, heard the firing pin hit but no other sound. None of the bullets had moved. I pulled the bullets and the cases were loaded with soot, indicating each primer had duly fired, but nothing happened.
I then repeated the test, using a 30-06 and 180 grain bullets. Results were exactly the same, no bullet had moved, not even the slightest, but each primer had fired and spread its soot in the case.
Next I went to the 243 and loaded the three different primers with a bullet but no powder. I should have been using new cases, instead I was just using my used cases, so of course some may have gripped the bullet tighter than others.
With the 243 neither the pistol primer nor the standard primer moved a bullet. When I shot the magnum primer I heard the noise and a sooted up empty came out of the chamber. I pushed a dowel down the barrel, just touched the bullet and it fell out of the chamber with marks on it just at the ogive.
I am not the slightest interested in someone saying what military primers do, or don't do. I was testing the ordinary components that hand loaders use and the results, while at complete odds to what we usually read, are never the less quite enlightening.

usually I agree with your post's H but this time my experience differs from yours. Years ago I experimented with a lot of wax bullet shooting (planning on winter time indoors practice), both small pistol primers and large. I started out using "unmodified" brass with regular factory flash holes's...every shot locked up the pistol, the primer came back against the recoil plate very tight, preventing any rotation even with a "LOT" of hammer pressure. Undoubtedly those primers would have excited the case if it hadn't have been for the recoil plate only allowing partial escape.

as I delved more into the practice I discovered it was recommended to drill the flash holes out so I started doing that in increments until the primer firing pressure didn't lock the cylinder. I virtually had to drill them out until there was only enough ledge left in the primer pocket for the primer anvil to sit on so it would still fire before I had a successful bunch of brass.

I have used a re-bound puller for many years on many rounds (some very heavily crimped) and have never had one ignite but I don't doubt for a minute that it "can't happen". In one of the threads on this subject someone made the statement that a primer will not ignite without a very sharp concentrated strike such as from a firing pin...absolutely false, I have had primers go off in the press just from the anvil catching on the mechanism and being "smeared" against the body.

As a second thought also...I have use an empty case and live primer to ascertain excessive headspace in rifles. With no blast pressure from powder & bullet to re-seat a primer they will always protrude from the primer pocket the amount of space between bolt face and cartridge head. I have had a couple of "stretched" brass framed 1860 Henry reproductions thru the shop that had a measurable primer protrudrance of 45 thou. using this method.

 

[H4831]

Fingers, I gave this thing long and hard consideration, including going a waaaaay back in memory and I now concede that I was wrong and the primer did ignite. The following is a PM I wrote yesterday to MajorMalContent:


Yep, it looks like you were right!
I would sure like to know how it does it, and if all primers would do it under the right circumstances.
Light bullets like your 223 are sure hard to pull and do take hard whacks.
Over the years I, like many at the time, did a lot of "experimenting," with guns and ammunition. I have set various rifle cartridges on a hot stove to ignite. Looking back, there are a lot of similarities to a primer igniting on a hot stove and what is going on here. When it ignites on the stove, the bullet will hit the wooden ceiling about five feet above the stove, only hard enough to barely mark the wood spruce board where it hits, then it bounces around the room. A 30-06 case will not be harmed, or enlarged, in any way. I am wondering now if the powder didn't ignite, even though heated on the stove until the primer went off.
By comparison, a 22 long rifle sitting on the stove until it goes off, will completely shred and twist the case, plus the 22 LR will make a louder report than does a 30-06. This indicates the 22 powder ignites but the big rifle powder does not ignite.
So that would help explain why the powder doesn't ignite when the primer goes off from pounding.
Bruce


Also, one of the reasons I didn't think the Major's primer ignited was because I had recently had a very similar thing happen while I was pounding out a bullet. I was using a pounder that had a plastic cap squeezed over the end to hole the cartridge from coming out during pounding. I explained this event in a couple of original posts on this thread, I think one was post #27.
On an extra hard whack, when only a tap was required, there was a definite bang, while pounder cap, cartridge and powder flew all over the place. I thought it was just the recoil from the heavy hit so I cleaned up the mess and never really examined things any further, just assuming that the primer didn't fire.
So there we go. While I gave a strong opinion that the Major's primer couldn't fire, there is a good chance that my primer fired!
Bruce