Which caliber for general woods use and wildlife protection
- Thread starter G.Mitchell
- Start date
I would not use anything that fits in the AR-15 if you have bear protection in mind unless you're willing to go with a .50 Beowulf, 458 Socom, or 450 Bushmaster and even with those there are better cartridges for protecting your life from an angry bear. Those are all also expensive to shoot and harder on the shoulder if you plan to play with it doing target practice.
The 6.5 Grendel is no where near powerful enough for bears and I wouldn't even hunt a deer with it past 200 yards. If you look at the velocity it's making with the heavier projectiles it's pretty slow which will mean poor penetration and poor expansion on large game. It's got a very efficient projectile making it great for target shooting, varmints, and predator hunting but I wouldn't choose it for anything larger than a wolf.
If you really want a black rifle that will do exactly what you are looking for then you want an AR-10 pattern rifle in any available chambering, I would even choose a .243 win over the 6.5 Grendel for actually shooting animals. Skip the BCl 102 though as they are so hit and miss on if you get a reliable one. A Modern Hunter can be reliable but even though mine has been performing great with the 6.5 Creedmoor I don't know that I would trust it for bear protection.
I gave up on hunting and carrying a black rifle for anything practical, I don't hunt with them anymore and I don't try to carry them in the bush much unless I have my quad. Why would you other than because you can. Even the lightest build still weighs more than my Rem 700 in 7-08, the bolt action is more reliable and more accurate for less money. I own quite a few black rifles and love shooting them but they are toys for me, real work gets done with the right tool for the job.
My ultimate hiking rifle and bear protection rifle was my Marlin 45-70, you could load it with lighter projectiles at moderate velocities for plinking and target practice without having a sore shoulder and you could load up 400+ grain projectiles that will smash through bone and thick hides to get the job done. The lever action is light weight, reliable, accurate enough, and has the knock down power needed when you might only have time for one shot. Remember that if you say bear protection you aren't shooting at a grazing bear 100 yards away, it's going to be at 20-30 yards and closing fast.
If you go with a semi auto black rifle in an AR-15 based rifle you're relying on magazine capacity rather than correct cartridge choice for the task at hand.
There really isn't a one rifle for all occasions rifle if you want it black and scary looking. If I was going to go with an AR-15 based platform I'd probably stay with a 223, cheap to shoot, will kill anything smaller than a deer, good for target practice, and if you end up face to face with a bear at least you have 10 round pistol mags and the 223 makes a lot of noise along with having the velocity to penetrate if you use a decent bullet.
It's always a compromise if you want a semi auto black rifle, you also have to make sure you spend enough time with the rifle to know it's reliable and that you're practiced enough with it to be able to get shots off in a hurry under pressure.
The 6.5 Grendel is no where near powerful enough for bears and I wouldn't even hunt a deer with it past 200 yards. If you look at the velocity it's making with the heavier projectiles it's pretty slow which will mean poor penetration and poor expansion on large game. It's got a very efficient projectile making it great for target shooting, varmints, and predator hunting but I wouldn't choose it for anything larger than a wolf.
If you really want a black rifle that will do exactly what you are looking for then you want an AR-10 pattern rifle in any available chambering, I would even choose a .243 win over the 6.5 Grendel for actually shooting animals. Skip the BCl 102 though as they are so hit and miss on if you get a reliable one. A Modern Hunter can be reliable but even though mine has been performing great with the 6.5 Creedmoor I don't know that I would trust it for bear protection.
I gave up on hunting and carrying a black rifle for anything practical, I don't hunt with them anymore and I don't try to carry them in the bush much unless I have my quad. Why would you other than because you can. Even the lightest build still weighs more than my Rem 700 in 7-08, the bolt action is more reliable and more accurate for less money. I own quite a few black rifles and love shooting them but they are toys for me, real work gets done with the right tool for the job.
My ultimate hiking rifle and bear protection rifle was my Marlin 45-70, you could load it with lighter projectiles at moderate velocities for plinking and target practice without having a sore shoulder and you could load up 400+ grain projectiles that will smash through bone and thick hides to get the job done. The lever action is light weight, reliable, accurate enough, and has the knock down power needed when you might only have time for one shot. Remember that if you say bear protection you aren't shooting at a grazing bear 100 yards away, it's going to be at 20-30 yards and closing fast.
If you go with a semi auto black rifle in an AR-15 based rifle you're relying on magazine capacity rather than correct cartridge choice for the task at hand.
There really isn't a one rifle for all occasions rifle if you want it black and scary looking. If I was going to go with an AR-15 based platform I'd probably stay with a 223, cheap to shoot, will kill anything smaller than a deer, good for target practice, and if you end up face to face with a bear at least you have 10 round pistol mags and the 223 makes a lot of noise along with having the velocity to penetrate if you use a decent bullet.
It's always a compromise if you want a semi auto black rifle, you also have to make sure you spend enough time with the rifle to know it's reliable and that you're practiced enough with it to be able to get shots off in a hurry under pressure.
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rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
The DP and Brenneke slugs are a big improvement in that the lead is much harder than typical foster slugs so it won't pancake when it hits bone. But the sectional density is still only .118 for a 12 ga 1oz slug. Compared to .348 for a 500gr .458 bullet, .301 for a 200gr .308 bullet, and .305 for a 286gr 9.3mm bullet. If you need penetration, SD of .300 or higher will do you well.
In a non-restricted AR style rifle I would not hesitate to go 450 Bushmaster or 458 SOCOM but I also already load 45 Colt/454 Casull and 45-70 so I have appropriate bullets to load for protection on the shelf.
I recently purchased a 16" barreled Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster it betters my 454 Casull loads in my 20" barreled LSI Puma M92 lever rifle by an average of 80 - 100fps loading the exact same bullets and I haven't worked up the loads for the 450 BM yet.
This 450 Bushmaster loaded with appropriate bullets is a thumper round that I would not hesitate to use as a defense combo against big bears.
When you take into consideration a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 loaded with 525gr bullets @ 1600fps or 550gr @ 1550fps is considered one of the better bear stoppers and then compare to the 355gr @ 1840fps or a 395gr @ 1750fps there is nothing in North American this combo can't stop.
With that said for ease of finding reloading components - factory ammo get your hands on a shorter 20" - 22" barreled bolt action in 30-06.
I recently purchased a 16" barreled Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster it betters my 454 Casull loads in my 20" barreled LSI Puma M92 lever rifle by an average of 80 - 100fps loading the exact same bullets and I haven't worked up the loads for the 450 BM yet.
This 450 Bushmaster loaded with appropriate bullets is a thumper round that I would not hesitate to use as a defense combo against big bears.
When you take into consideration a Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 loaded with 525gr bullets @ 1600fps or 550gr @ 1550fps is considered one of the better bear stoppers and then compare to the 355gr @ 1840fps or a 395gr @ 1750fps there is nothing in North American this combo can't stop.
With that said for ease of finding reloading components - factory ammo get your hands on a shorter 20" - 22" barreled bolt action in 30-06.
Yes !
Actually I think a nice old jm marlin 336 in 30-30 will be perfect for your use, if you don't care too much about the semi auto and 10rd mag part.
It's lighter than most semi auto, capable of shooting 1-1.5 moa with scope, and the caliber will work for both predator control and (black) bear defense.
It's lighter than most semi auto, capable of shooting 1-1.5 moa with scope, and the caliber will work for both predator control and (black) bear defense.
killer1963daddy
Regular
- Location
- peace river country B.C.
I believe the op was looking for an ar-ish platform.
So a 100 year old bolt action would not be my choice..imho
OP said bush gun, in my area that means a heavy bullet that doesn't defect thru willows or twigs.
It also means most "surprise encounters " happen at close range, so the 450 bushy is my choice.
Yes there are larger calibers, as to the OP, is conserned with recoil.
The 250 grain "stretched 45acp" will produce recoil, but less,200yrd.+ capabilities.
Draw back is you wanna reload..or buy and hoard your round.
Another upper in 22lr, 9mm ,223 would allow use of platform much cheaper if that's your thing...
I was called up to a friends cattle ranch to dispatch a 1400- 1500lbs cow that had broken her lower left front leg for them.
Didn't hesitate I took my Ruger American 450 Bushmaster I loaded it with my 355gr WFNGC @ 1850fps loads.
Cow wouldn't let us closer then 40 yards from her I put the 355gr bullet 1" high above center of her eyes she hit the ground harder than I could imagine.
Later on that trip I tried my 250gr FTX loads @ 2300fps + my first dot down on my Leupold 2-7x33mm LR reticle scope is dead on at 250 yards.
If I had an interest in an AR platform I would have uppers in 6.8spc and 450 Bushmaster.
Didn't hesitate I took my Ruger American 450 Bushmaster I loaded it with my 355gr WFNGC @ 1850fps loads.
Cow wouldn't let us closer then 40 yards from her I put the 355gr bullet 1" high above center of her eyes she hit the ground harder than I could imagine.
Later on that trip I tried my 250gr FTX loads @ 2300fps + my first dot down on my Leupold 2-7x33mm LR reticle scope is dead on at 250 yards.
If I had an interest in an AR platform I would have uppers in 6.8spc and 450 Bushmaster.
I had the same idea about 5 months ago. ATR is on it. You'll need to build two uppers. Only way meet your criteria i.e. one in either .223, 7.65x39, 6.8 SPC or my personal choice would be the 6.5 Grendal. A upper in .223 for plinking is obviously the best lower cost choice and for small game it will work well with the right bullet. Add a .45 cal upper for bears. Already stated that a .45 cal AR5ish rifle is not a great choice for bears. Especially Grizz...but really a .375 HH type power rifle is the only medicine for those scary beasts, so forget about taking one of them on with any AR. Have you considered a light weight version in the AR10ish family of rifles? You can get a well/light weight built Stag 10 down to under 9 lbs with the right optics. Probably only giving up a lb or so to the AR15ish family of unrestricted rifles. A light weight pencil barreled Stag10 and a good muzzle brake might be suitable for your kids and wife. Irunguns sells them for about $2,100 taxes and shipping all in. It took alot of training but my 13 yr and 11yr old daughters have no issue unloading a full mag while taking off hand shoots into a 12 x 16" metal plate at 100 m using the sling supported method on my Stag10. Its a pencil barreled Stag 10 with a Lantac Dragon Brake...weighs in a 10.4 lbs with Vortex 2-10x32 Viper optic, BUIS, three MDI rails, sling and a 5 rnd mag.
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- Location
- NFA country
Taylor Alaskan 92 all weather chromed takedown - 44 mag - 16" bbl.
Light, compact, powerful, easy to transport in a suitcase.
Light, compact, powerful, easy to transport in a suitcase.
