Which Long Range Caliber for 1600 Yards?

[remington jim]

I’m going try the 7 MM PRC With Berger 190 HYbrids There a very high BC bullet . Rifle will weight just 22 lbs ready to shoot so I can use it in F open 1000 yards .
Just got my new IBI. HMB Action Now I am really for the build . I also have the rest of the parts too to build .
KS Barrel - RB Trigger - MDT ACC chassis - Mercier Weight Kit

 

[280aiguy]

Brass and ammo??
Remington discontinued SAUM line.
The clock started ticking the second Rem stopped.

Its a reloader dream...Short action,inherently super accurate and as efficient as it gets.
ADG brass is available.

 

[adamthebad]

I wouldn't say a comeback. It's had a steady, albeit not huge, following for the past maybe 10 years as a good performing extended range cartridge (exclusively for hand loaders) that you can shoehorn into a short action. Lots of guys liked the 7WSM as well but brass totally dried up. Since ADG started making 7SAUM brass a few years back that has kinda been the go to. Obviously there is pretty much no factory ammo available (other than from some boutique brands stateside, maybe Eagle Eye or Unknown Munitions) and even if someone had a box of old factory ammo it wouldn't be very applicable to extended long range shooting (was all hunting ammo). I want to say the 7 Sherman Short is probably pretty similar but I'm really not well versed on the Sherman cartridges.

in the south Gun shops or some road side RELOADER can get you pretty well what you need ALMOST....
and flea markets like the massive TAMPA BAY and the Georgia La Vaquita....sell all kinds wlid and obsolete stuff Even the totally defunct .577/450 Martini-Henry (zero ammo)

 

[Bustercluck]

I’m going try the 7 MM PRC With Berger 190 HYbrids There a very high BC bullet . Rifle will weight just 22 lbs ready to shoot so I can use it in F open 1000 yards .
Just got my new IBI. HMB Action Now I am really for the build . I also have the rest of the parts too to build .
KS Barrel - RB Trigger - MDT ACC chassis - Mercier Weight Kit

The 7saum is great, but I’d be looking at exactly this if I were building a 7. I’d probably go to a .308 calibre though for what the op is looking for. And a 338 Lapua if I wanted to add the cost of a big gun.

 

[remington jim]

The 7saum is great, but I’d be looking at exactly this if I were building a 7. I’d probably go to a .308 calibre though for what the op is looking for. And a 338 Lapua if I wanted to add the cost of a big gun.

I thought about using the 300 PRC but theres a lot of MORE recoil with the heavier bullets . Too much in a 22 lb rifle for me !
If I were to build a heavier rifle I would go 300 then

 

[remington jim]

Its a reloader dream...Short action,inherently super accurate and as efficient as it gets.
ADG brass is available.

Who Why CARES about a short action Short actions in target rifles are a PITA . JMHO

 

[adamthebad]

I thought about using the 300 PRC but theres a lot of MORE recoil with the heavier bullets . Too much in a 22 lb rifle for me !
If I were to build a heavier rifle I would go 300 then

The 300PRC is easy to tame...29in full BULL BARTY, 6 prt brake, some extra balance weight on the chassis and its fine.
want to ruin your shooting pull one off a shelf with PVC stock and carbon 24inch barrel: one maybe two and NUMB to the finger tips
225 to 245 gr. about 35 to 45 foot-pounds of free recoil energy off the shelf.
TWEAKED version....Recoil Energy: 8 to 14 ft-lbs
20-Gauge: Usually generates around 15 to 25 ft-lbs of recoil

 

[Mysticprecision]

Another thought experiment.. JBM ballistics generated data. Berger 200-20X 30cal bullet which is popular in FTR so we have a ton of info on it.

comparing drift using a 10mph at full value at 1600yds. Muzzle velocity
2600fps 4 mils - 308win 30" barrel - 3 to 5000 rds of bore life
2800fps 3.6mils - 300Win mag in a 26" barrel - around 1500rds
3000fps 3.2mils - larger 30cal magnum in 26" barrel. - usually under 1000rds

Alot of extra muzzle velocity doesn't equate to alot of drift reduction.... but it certainly ups all the negatives.

YMMV

Jerry

 

[Dylan4570]

I went with 300 PRC based on cost. I got a good deal on a Bergara B14 HMR, and ammo.

At that distance I prefer 7mm or larger, I think 7mm,30 cal, or 338 is a good area to be. I don't think anything that exotic is really needed for 1600.

The simplest answer is probably 7mm PRC or 300 PRC.

 

[iron cat]

After the 1 mile record was broken using a WSM cartridge , Shilen barrel and Savage action many years ago, I had Mick McPhee do up a spare Savage action I had with one of his .30 barrels in 300 WSM. Barrel was 30", and I used a 15X Lyman Super Targetspot scope.
I had no issues shooting at 1 mile with 200+ grain ULDRBT Alberta Wildcats.
Cat

 

[remington jim]

The 300PRC is easy to tame...29in full BULL BARTY, 6 prt brake, some extra balance weight on the chassis and its fine.
want to ruin your shooting pull one off a shelf with PVC stock and carbon 24inch barrel: one maybe two and NUMB to the finger tips
225 to 245 gr. about 35 to 45 foot-pounds of free recoil energy off the shelf.
TWEAKED version....Recoil Energy: 8 to 14 ft-lbs
20-Gauge: Usually generates around 15 to 25 ft-lbs of recoil

I own and shoot a 300 PRC - its a LOT more cartridge then the 7 PRC !

 

[wallz]

Who Why CARES about a short action Short actions in target rifles are a PITA . JMHO

Jim, when did we start to care what you think? LOL, Poke, Poke.

Biggest reason, is my defiance action sitting with my carbon barrel in 6.5 PRC, which now only gets used during hunting season, and even then, maybe. Plus I can use the chassis it sits in. So all I really need is a barrel, brass, dies and bullets at this point. Too much of a savings to not look at, at this point.

If I had your $$ I would go new receiver for sure, but single feed, left hand bolt, no ejector, left hand port, new chassis to match. I recently got that 6 casher in left hand, and just loving that left bolt, even tho I shoot right handed. Way easier then reaching over all the time. For the cost of a new receiver, I'll have a new build ready to shoot by using what I gotz.

 

[Da Jimmer]

Have you considered a new Proof PXT barrel in 6.5Prc? Then you can keep the same barrel on and not worry about burning it out as soon?

 

[rugbydave]

Another thought experiment.. JBM ballistics generated data. Berger 200-20X 30cal bullet which is popular in FTR so we have a ton of info on it.

comparing drift using a 10mph at full value at 1600yds. Muzzle velocity
2600fps 4 mils - 308win 30" barrel - 3 to 5000 rds of bore life
2800fps 3.6mils - 300Win mag in a 26" barrel - around 1500rds
3000fps 3.2mils - larger 30cal magnum in 26" barrel. - usually under 1000rds

Alot of extra muzzle velocity doesn't equate to alot of drift reduction.... but it certainly ups all the negatives.

YMMV

Jerry

I can't speak to how fast you can get a 200-20x going in a 30" .308 (I run 175RDFs at 2725ish in a 26") so maybe 2600 is do-able if you're single loading but I think that expecting to top out at 3000fps with a 200-20x in something like a 26" .300NM is a bit disingenuous, never mind that you're comparing a 30" barrel to a 26" for some strange reason...

If we're gonna stick with equal barrel lengths (you know, an apples to apples comparison) I can easily push 220 LRHTs @3180 in a 29.5" which works out to 2.2 mils of drift for a 10mph full value at 1600yds, so just a hair more than 1/2 the drift of the .308. I don't think anyone will argue that big ELR boomers (not that a .330NM would be considered one by ELR competitors) are economical to shoot but they definitely up the statistical likelihood of actually hitting the target, especially in dynamic wind conditions.

 

[Mysticprecision]

My comparison was never meant to say what was absolutely possible. Just take any bullet, run the software at these velocities and see what happens. The chamberings were merely a point of reference so shooters could ball park. Any shooter can hot rod up or down to their own satisfaction. But the point still holds, alot more velocity per given bullet really doesn't change outcomes downrange (drop YES, drift - not so much). And yes, the FTR velocity is done all the time... and I am on the conservative side (don't recommend it but it is done every weekend all around the world)

If you go heavier, with possible higher BC, you up recoil... does that matter?

if you go bigger case volume, you most certainly increase bore wear... does that matter?

are the targets 3 moa or under moa?

does the shooter want a no brainer 'left edge' experience or want to drive the setup to the center of whatever target down range?

Just putting a counter viewpoint to the if you go far, go big. 1600yds isn't all that far with todays bullets... and a number of mid sized cases work just fine (assuming this is about S&Gs and not competing)

Jerry

PS, wrt to the small hard to hit vs big when it gets windy... shooting down at Rattlesnake range in Benton WA, you are going to get Hellalotta wind. And shooters using the anemic 155gr 30cal are eating out the center of a MOA sized target at 1000yds using a sling, elbows and open sights. In F class, X rings are hit all the time deliberately in winds that can approach 35mph... and that would be 1/2 MOA.

If you are going to shoot far, you better learn to read the wind... and if you have some indication of what the wind is doing and understand what it is telling you, wind is just a number on a dial.

And as for switching winds...

We had a bunch of PRS shooters compete with us to get some real world 1000yds practise. The person I was squadded with had a 300magnum launching ubber big (I think he was testing for the NF ELR challenge). At 1000yds, he had a really hard time keeping them inside the 9 ring (which is a 2 moa circle) with a number of shots reaching out to the 7ring which is a long ways from the center. Shots were up down, left right even when the winds were high but steady. Unsure what he was holding off but I doubt that combo was shooting anywhere near 1.5 MOA at distance.

He was stunned that I was stitching the X/10 ring (1/2 and 1 moa) with my itty bitty 308....

 

[Bustercluck]

Have you considered a new Proof PXT barrel in 6.5Prc? Then you can keep the same barrel on and not worry about burning it out as soon?

Proof research are masters of marketing… and the Fudds eat it up.

 

[yodave]

I have more answers then problems in my gunsafe

284 win with 180 thou freebore
7 saum with 200 thou freebore
7mm-08 AI
thought about 7mm SAW

you've got a PRC boltface, you either have to find or rent a chamber reamer, you want barrel life and recoil to be manageable, that boils down to 7mm at 2820 FPS, how you get there is up to you, 7mm/300WSM is likely the cheapest easiest ways with brass and dies, 7mm-08AI with a 30 inch barrel and 168 grain bullets is another, and sierra just released the new 175 grain 7mm matchking, pairs well with the 162 hornady eldx

I've got an extremely long barreled 6.5 creedmoor, shoots 150 grain SMK bullets at 2820fps, same BC as the Berger 180 Hybrid, same wind holds, way less powder, way less recoil, way more options for good brass

sometimes a new bolt for an excisting action is the cheapest option out there

308win, 32-34 inch barrel with a gain twist, 155-200 grain bullets, the other easy button, all the load data has been done for you just like the 6br and 6 dasher, again small or large primers to ride through the next shortage

options.......

I shot your 1000 yard buffalo offhand with my 7mm short creedmoor AI last august, might try it again this august, mid month, if you're free, come say hi

 

[280aiguy]

Who Why CARES about a short action Short actions in target rifles are a PITA . JMHO

You can get some nice mag lengths in a short action costom these days.

 

[remington jim]

You can get some nice mag lengths in a short action costom these days.

I have a Wyatt box in one of my REM 700 SAs now still max coal is only 2.975 my 6.5 PRC just makes it
Just sayin Std lenght or long is a much better alternative! THERE is NO advantage to short actions in target except for Light Weight mountain rifles ! You can cycle a LA Remmy within a split second of a short action. JAMHO

 

[rugbydave]

My comparison was never meant to say what was absolutely possible. Just take any bullet, run the software at these velocities and see what happens. The chamberings were merely a point of reference so shooters could ball park. Any shooter can hot rod up or down to their own satisfaction. But the point still holds, alot more velocity per given bullet really doesn't change outcomes downrange (drop YES, drift - not so much). And yes, the FTR velocity is done all the time... and I am on the conservative side (don't recommend it but it is done every weekend all around the world)

If you go heavier, with possible higher BC, you up recoil... does that matter?

if you go bigger case volume, you most certainly increase bore wear... does that matter?

are the targets 3 moa or under moa?

does the shooter want a no brainer 'left edge' experience or want to drive the setup to the center of whatever target down range?

Just putting a counter viewpoint to the if you go far, go big. 1600yds isn't all that far with todays bullets... and a number of mid sized cases work just fine (assuming this is about S&Gs and not competing)

Jerry

PS, wrt to the small hard to hit vs big when it gets windy... shooting down at Rattlesnake range in Benton WA, you are going to get Hellalotta wind. And shooters using the anemic 155gr 30cal are eating out the center of a MOA sized target at 1000yds using a sling, elbows and open sights. In F class, X rings are hit all the time deliberately in winds that can approach 35mph... and that would be 1/2 MOA.

If you are going to shoot far, you better learn to read the wind... and if you have some indication of what the wind is doing and understand what it is telling you, wind is just a number on a dial.

And as for switching winds...

We had a bunch of PRS shooters compete with us to get some real world 1000yds practise. The person I was squadded with had a 300magnum launching ubber big (I think he was testing for the NF ELR challenge). At 1000yds, he had a really hard time keeping them inside the 9 ring (which is a 2 moa circle) with a number of shots reaching out to the 7ring which is a long ways from the center. Shots were up down, left right even when the winds were high but steady. Unsure what he was holding off but I doubt that combo was shooting anywhere near 1.5 MOA at distance.

He was stunned that I was stitching the X/10 ring (1/2 and 1 moa) with my itty bitty 308....

If the debate is about the capabilities of various cartridges relative to each other then keeping the variables(ie barrel length) the same is just what you need to do to keep the debate honest... It's just disingenuous to claim that the difference in drift between a .308 and something like a .300PRC or NM is minimal because it isn't. Even in your skewed example the .300 magnum had 25% less wind drift, that's significant. Nevermind that in reality (shooting actual bullet/MV pairings that you would in a 300PRC or Norma) it's closer to 1/2 the wind drift. Let's be honest, no one builds a .308 for the express purpose of shooting ELR, there's just no reason to do so. You shoot FTR, fine, you're constrained by which cartridges you can shoot but the OP isn't.

Whether about ####s and giggles or competition, it stands to reason that, if your goal (regardless of skill level) is to put rounds on target at extended ranges, you build something in a cartridge that gives you material advantages within the constraints you impose on yourself (price, etc). I mean, if not, why not just buy a Rem 783 in .308 and lob bullets at the target till you hit it, am I right? In the OP's case that was either build on the action he has (with a 6.5PRC bolt face) or build something from scratch. That's why most reasonable people suggested either a longer steel barrel in some flavour of short mag or doing a build from scratch in 300PRC or 300NM. Either maximize what can be done on his existing action or build a purpose-built rig to give him all the possible advantages.

As to Rattlesnake, I've shot down there plenty (and at a boat load of other ranges in eastern Washington) and have experienced their winds. As you well know, F-Class and PRS/field matches are very different disciplines and because someone is adept at one doesn't mean that he is necessarily adept at the other, I'm pretty sure the guys at Rattlesnake like Monty and John would agree with me

As to your experience being paired with a PRS shooter who struggled while you didn't, I'm not sure what to tell you. Possibly his rifle didn't group great at distance while yours did, more likely he just wasn't as adept at reading wind as you are in the F-Class format. I'm not really sure what that illustrates other than you out shot him (whoever he was) that day. He probably also didn't do very well at the NF ELR, which has been won by F-Class guys (like Litz, shooting a .300NM) and by PRS guys (also mostly shooting .300NMs)...