- Location
- The Conservative part of Ontario
They still make that stuff?
Who shoots factory ammo?
- Thread starter todbartell
- Start date
Most don't... or won't limit themselves to only taking shots that are within the limits of their skills.Gatehouse said:
You want to see the average level of hunter marksmanship... hang out at your local rifle range for the next four weeks.
The next time I see a hunter "sighting in" at a hand drawn circle on a piece of cardboard, shooting off his elbows from the cab of his pickup truck, I think I'm going to gag.
Famous words of wisdom: "I'm not much on them targets, but I'm sudden death on anything that sheds fur or leaks blood".
I suspect this guy hunts with a rifle whose sights are gun taped on, his initials are artistically inlaid in the rifle butt using galvanized roofing nails, and ammunition is the very best Wally World had on sale in the last three years. The mottled rust covering the outside (and inside) of the barrel and the action lend a historical patina to his "rifle".ninepointer said:
Of course, since he only fires enough sight in shots at the beginning of each year to eventually hit the ice cream pail he is using as an aiming point, a box of factory ammo lasts a long, long time.
And thus, he simply cannot see why anybody would reload.
Or else he's a troll...
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
Rick said:
Why does that give me images of a bunch of brain dead idiots chasing a pack of screaming virgins?
I reload by 257 Weatherby for cost and accuracy. 15 bucks a box vice 70 bucks for factory ammo. Plus I found a load that outshoots the factory load for accuracy. Its a 5 shot grouping with 120 nosler partitions.
Since I have the equipment, I reload all my calibers
Since I have the equipment, I reload all my calibers
- Location
- South Cariboo, BC
Aww heck, those partitions couldn't even find the center of the target, why would you keep shooting them? At least with factory ammo, you'd get a nice spread all over the target and one might get close to the center...
cariboo_kid said:Aww heck, those partitions couldn't even find the center of the target, why would you keep shooting them? At least with factory ammo, you'd get a nice spread all over the target and one might get close to the center...
Thats why I keep shooting the deer in the butt ! Now I know....
- Location
- Daysland AB
Rolling your own is just plain fun
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Let's drop all the "You're not a real man if you don't reload" rhetoric. Good and ethical marksmanship for hunting purposes or for recreational shooting does not require MOA accuracy or the shooting of hundreds or thousands of reloaded practice rounds annually. For most shooting applications, reloading is nothing more than a hobby. If you enjoy your hobby, great! I know many guys that reload and they do it because they like it and because they strive for perfection. Those same guys also don't shoot any more or any fewer deer than those of us who shoot factory ammo. I also know a couple of "hardcore" reloaders who, quite frankly, spend too much time with their reloading presses and not enough time with their wives and kids.
Ninepointer
Ninepointer
ninepointer said:
Very well said IMO. I agree with this but I don't know as much about ballistics as alot of you. As a noob hunter, I would say he seems to be correct!
I mean the target on a deer or a moose has got to be atleast 5 inches round. Thats kind of big. Even with a 3" moa, your well inside the boat
Would you care to point us to where anyone made any claims about individuals not being a real man if they don't reload? It appears this is just another product of your fevered imagination.ninepointer said:
Perhaps we should have started with dropping the silliness about those who reload being lifelong bachelors living at home with their mommies and daddies. Ya figger? It offends my wife - who reloads a fair amount herself.
Good and ethical marksmanship for hunting purposes - with anything whether it be a bow or a rifle - requires that you have equipment capable of holding well inside the vital zone you are shooting at AND the personal skill to hit that zone.
If all your shooting is at close range - or you restrict yourself to shooting at close range - then the same degree of skill and precision is not required of the shooter, nor the same degree of precision from the equipment.
On the other hand, what's the vital zone on a deer or antelope at 300 yards?.
Take a rifle capable of two minutes of angle with factory ammunition - it could group better but if anything it's more likely it will group worse.
Now let us consider Bubba Hunter who sneers at those who reload and then use that ammuntion to do lots of shooting. I'm sure there's a few superhumans out there who don't need to do any practicing other than firing a few shots to confirm zero at the beginning of the season who can hold two minutes of angle shooting from field positions. You may be one of them, but most people aren't. So we'll be kind and say that Mr. unpracticed hunter is capable of holding four minutes of angle shooting in the field when he goes afield without practice. And I am being kind because I see LOTS of hunters every year sighting in at the beginning of the season.
So here we have our talented - and unpracticed - hunter shooting with his "good enough" loads, shooting at a deer or antelope at 300 yards. Buddy and his equipment are just about good enough to shoot an 18" group at 300 yards - just a teensy bit more than the vital zone of that deer or antelope. Or sheep, goat, black bear, or elk for that matter.
For anyone that intends to shoot at game over any distance at all, getting the best accuracy out of a rifle AND practicing certainly is an issue of ethics. To those to restrict themselves to the distances within which they can hold the vital zone of a game animal with their equipment and skills unmaintained by regular practice with their equipment, I salute you.
What absolute rubbish!
Why is it you give the impression of having a real grudge against those who reload?
Now you've gotten them down to being uncaring louts who neglect the wife and kiddies. I'm surprised you didn't also claim they beat their dogs and hurl abuse at the neighbors!
i use both reloads and factory ammo (plus lots of surplus ammo). i mostly buy factory ammo, then reload the brass, but have been known to buy new brass. it is also nice to have a couple of boxes of factory stashed away for when the reloads are gone and time doesn't allow a reloading session.
some cartridges are almost mandatory to reload for, either for performance, availability, or for cost.
some cartridges are almost mandatory to reload for, either for performance, availability, or for cost.
I do a lot of reloading, but there is a lot of good factory ammo. The issue is most guys don't test a lot of it to see what shoots well in there rifle because it costs too much.
Most of the guys I know go and get a box of factory at Walmart or Crappy tire, being whichever is the cheapest and not considering a premium bullet choice. Premium rounds costs twice that of the standard loads. A lot of these guys also don't go to the range to verify the change of Point of impact when buying a box of the sale ammo. They figure it was on last year with Winchester Power Points, so it will be on this year with Remington rounds.
Reloaders tend to do a lot of testing, being very selective of their bullet choices and then tailoring it to there specific rifle for accuracy and performance.
As long as you actually go and sight in your rounds properly and select factory ammo wisely for what game you are shooting, there is nothing wrong with it.
Most of the guys I know go and get a box of factory at Walmart or Crappy tire, being whichever is the cheapest and not considering a premium bullet choice. Premium rounds costs twice that of the standard loads. A lot of these guys also don't go to the range to verify the change of Point of impact when buying a box of the sale ammo. They figure it was on last year with Winchester Power Points, so it will be on this year with Remington rounds.
Reloaders tend to do a lot of testing, being very selective of their bullet choices and then tailoring it to there specific rifle for accuracy and performance.
As long as you actually go and sight in your rounds properly and select factory ammo wisely for what game you are shooting, there is nothing wrong with it.
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- Location
- WMU248 near Edmonton
ninepointer said:
so since you started all the name calling, and now you want to call it quits, perhaps you should write a nice apology.
and its not nice to sterotype all reloaders because you know guys that .......
I hand load for accuracy for my hunting rifles and for economics in my milsurps and pistols. Some of my rifles shoot better with loads that you can't buy (200grn .308)
I spend a few hours a month in the reloading room, and my wife is happy with my little hobby. She also thinks that I'm saving money by reloading
which frees up for me more cash to buy more guns
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Would you do me a favour?cereal83 said:
Take your 3" MOA hunting rifle and head down to your local range. Set up a target with a 5" round zone as you mentioned above at 250 yards - a range that the majority of hunters in North America would agree was pretty acceptable.
Now there are no benchrests out in the bush, of course, but just for fun fire ten shots at that circle from the benchrest at the range and then tell me how many landed inside that 5" circle. A 3 MOA rifle should group in about 7.5" at that range before you start introducing shooter error, so it should be interesting.
Now try it again shooting as you will in the field: fire ten shots sitting, ten shots kneeling, and ten shots offhand. Put a BIG piece of paper behind your 5" circle so you can tell us what kind of group sizes you end up with after firing from each of those positions.
I doubt you will be able to keep even 50% of your shots in that 5" circle at that range - even off the benchrest, never mind shooting from field positions. That might be good enough for shooting paper, but 50% is nowhere good enough to be ethical shooting at game. Not as far as I'm concerned anyways.
BTW, it is not my view that everyone must have a minute of angle hunting rifle and be able to hold the vital zone of a game animal shooting in the field at longer ranges. What IS my view - and it isn't unreasonable in my opinion - is that the combination of equipment and shooter skill should be such that every time that hunter pulls the trigger, it is a near certainty that the result will be a quick and humane kill. If your hunting consists of shooting critters no further than 50 meters away from a hunting blind that also provides a rest for your rifle, then I'm sure an old .32 Special with a shot out bore that you never shoot other than at game will do just fine. But the further out the hunting ranges get, the more difficult the conditions (i.e. wind), the more that is required of both the rifle and of the shooter.
In closing, there may be superhumans out there who don't need to practice with their rifles shooting from field positions to be fine shots. And there certainly are some people out there who can afford to purchase ten boxes or so of hunting ammunition for three or four practice sessions prior to hunting season. At $35 a box... But I'm not a person who fits in either of those categories - and I'll bet you that you aren't either.
By the way, just out of curiosity, as a "noob hunter", how many shots did you fire in practice out of your rifle last year before going afield? And how many of those shots were fired sitting, kneeling, and offhand? Inquiring minds want to know!
mylesrom said:
I agree with Myles in that, for the more popular calibers there is a fine choice of excellent ammunition loaded with high quality bullets. He is also correct there is some real crap out there and/or bullets that are not suitable for the intended purpose. Additionally, I agree with him that too many of the "store bought" crowd are careless as to resighting each time they buy a new kind of ammunition - although you would think they would at least sight in at the beginning of each season to confirm zero and so catch any differences.
By nature, the bargain basement ammunition buyers are also unlikely to do as much practicing as they should before each season - helps to keep the cost of hunting down if you don't shoot a bunch of ammunition beforehand, you see.
So in truth, if a hunter intelligently selects factory ammunition for his 30/06, 300 Winchester, etc AND also purchases enough to do sufficient practice with each year before season opening (or limits himself to "sure thing" ranges and conditions), then that hunter is the equal as far as preparedness goes as anyone who reloads.
But here's why I reload:
- I can't buy a box of .358 Norma Magnum ammunition at Canadian Tire, and the cost of the ammunition is ridiculous to begin with.
- Ammunition available for the .358 Winchester is ridiculously anemic.
- I can't get purchase 30/06 loads with the bullets I want to use.
- I can't purchase 30/06 Ackley Improved ammunition and while it will shoot 30/06 just fine, I won't get the advantages of that caliber.
- I can't purchase downloaded ammunition that is a fraction of the cost and easier on both the shooter and the bore of the rifle
- I gave up long ago trying to find factory ammunition that would equal the accuracy of carefully tuned handloads in my firearms - match handgun ammunition being one exception.
- I can't afford factory ammunition in the quantities that I shoot.
- I like to shoot military surplus firearms; I don't want to shoot corrosive ammunition in them and I can reload more accurate ammunition than what is available at surplus anyways - and do it for less expense.
- I enjoy hunting with cast bullets at times; whether out of my grandfather's 107 year old 1895 Winchester or out of a 40/65 Maynard or .358 Winchester for that matter. That requires reloading, pure and simple.
- I only own two shotguns - a Browning 2000 and a Superposed. Both are from the era prior to screw-in chokes. Trial and error handloading using different hulls, wads, powders, etc allows me to change the pattern of a barrel up or down. AND... I can go to the patterning board and work on my loads until I find a combination that doesn't leave any bird-crippling holes in it. How many factory-ammo bird hunters even try the various brands to find the best results at the patterning board, I wonder...
I reload my 257 Weatherby for cost, Weatherby ammo is outrageous. But it costs no more to reload than a 30-06
I reload my 6.5 x 55 for premium bullet choices, which you can't get.
I also reload my friends 358 Norma Mag, unless you want to pay 80 bucks a box for Norma ammo....
The others, just because I have the equipment already.
I reload my 6.5 x 55 for premium bullet choices, which you can't get.
I also reload my friends 358 Norma Mag, unless you want to pay 80 bucks a box for Norma ammo....
The others, just because I have the equipment already.
I have never been hunting. I have only put about 140-160 bullets through my rifle. I have never shot from a rest, I just setup in a field and shoot away in the standing and kneeling position. I am just saying, I don't think we all need to have 0.300 moa before a hunt. I am sure some of the older hunters who never cared about this type of stuff have crappy aim but they still get their kill. I dunno. I say do whatever floats your boat!
Rick said:
How about this one from page 1?
Gatehouse said:
This is a stupid discussion on both sides. There are valid reasons to reload but the suggestion being made that someone who does reload is a more ethical and superior hunter is errant nonsense.
There are equally valid reasons to buy factory if one doesn't consider the time, bother and expense of loading equipment worth the investment. If the non-reloader sights in and practices with his rifle until he is satisfied he can hit the vitals then he is every bit the match of the reloader.
I shoot .223 and .270 and the prospect of reloading isn't appealing when I can buy factory ammo that shoots as well as anything I can make myself. To stress and strain to shrink a 100 yard five shot group from 1.25" to .75" isn't all that appealing to me.
I load shotgun and rifle when I can't get precisely what I want from the factory. With the wide range of factory ammo in the popular calibers unless one is shooting an oddball round or a wildcat there are increasingly fewer reasons to reload.
