Who shoots factory ammo?

[cariboo_kid]

Careful Clay, taking anything Gatehouse says too seriously can be dangerous for your (mental) health!

Let's let go of all the generalizations here folks, choosing to reload or not has nothing to do with how ethical a hunter you may or may not be. Some of us just buy calibers that we CAN afford to shoot factory ammo out of, such as my 223, 7.62X51 and 9mm. I certainly do try all available ammo to find which my firearm likes, and choose an appropriate load for the intended use.

I like to shoot, so I buy guns that I can afford to feed.

 

[Howard]

Careful Clay, taking anything Gatehouse says too seriously can be dangerous for your (mental) health!

Let's let go of all the generalizations here folks, choosing to reload or not has nothing to do with how ethical a hunter you may or may not be. Some of us just buy calibers that we CAN afford to shoot factory ammo out of, such as my 223, 7.62X51 and 9mm. I certainly do try all available ammo to find which my firearm likes, and choose an appropriate load for the intended use.

I like to shoot, so I buy guns that I can afford to feed.

Good arguments on both sides...

 

[Claybuster]

Careful Clay, taking anything Gatehouse says too seriously can be dangerous for your (mental) health!

I've been hanging around this forum long enough to take everything Gatehouse says with a grain of salt unless it has to do with bears or cooking.

 

[Rick]

There are valid reasons to reload but the suggestion being made that someone who does reload is a more ethical and superior hunter is errant nonsense.

Here, let me quote myself:
So in truth, if a hunter intelligently selects factory ammunition for his 30/06, 300 Winchester, etc AND also purchases enough to do sufficient practice with each year before season opening (or limits himself to "sure thing" ranges and conditions), then that hunter is the equal as far as preparedness goes as anyone who reloads.

Now let me do quote myself more time:
For anyone that intends to shoot at game over any distance at all, getting the best accuracy out of a rifle AND practicing certainly is an issue of ethics. To those to restrict themselves to the distances within which they can hold the vital zone of a game animal with their equipment and skills unmaintained by regular practice with their equipment, I salute you.

If you don't practice nor extract the necessary accuracy from your rifle, but restrict yourself to distances where a lethal hit is a certainty each time you pull the trigger, cool. If you purchase enough factory ammo to find a brand and type that meets your requirements, and then purchase enough each year so that you are a proficient marksman capable of hitting with certainty at distances beyond "sure thing" distance, then cool.

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of suspect the majority of "factory only" hunters out there don't spend hundreds of dollars each year on factory ammuntion so they can put in some practice sessions shooting at distances that they'll be willing to pull the trigger at once the season starts. Maybe it's time for another poll!

And if you're shooting at distances you haven't both confirmed your zero at and confirmed your ability to make a lethal shot through practicing in field positions at those distances, then you ARE less ethical in my opinion, and to suggest this is just not so is where the "errant nonsense" lies.

There are equally valid reasons to buy factory if one doesn't consider the time, bother and expense of loading equipment worth the investment. If the non-reloader sights in and practices with his rifle until he is satisfied he can hit the vitals then he is every bit the match of the reloader.

Jee... hmmmm... I think I already said that some messages back before your post. Oh look - it's in that quote above!

The rub is, of course, most don't. And I don't care if you're talking shooting, archery, or golf - if you actually only take half a dozen shots a year, your skill level is going to be minimal at best.

 

[cariboo_kid]

<snip>
And I don't care if you're talking shooting, archery, or golf - if you actually only take half a dozen shots a year, your skill level is going to be minimal at best.

Exactly, and whether you spend the $500+ a year on factory ammo, or on a reloading press instead, it makes no difference in the end result. Either you make sure to get enough practice to put your properly selected hunting load into the right spot, or you don't.

 

[NAA]

I'm set up to reload in every ctg I have guns for... But sometimes I will pick up a box of factory ammo, expecially at a gunshow, if it's a "deal". More often than not it's for the brass once I've fired it in a particular gun. I know I can make more accurate ammo than I can buy off the shelf & have proven that to myself in the past.

 

[mylesrom]

Even though I reload for all my rifles, I have found an extremely accurate Factory load for my 303 British Mark 4. Its the Federal 180gr cheapies that you can buy anywhere. Its shooting under an inch, so I don't see a lot of reason to reload 180's in that rifle. Though the 150 reloads are very accurate. You can find an accurate Factory load as long as you are willing to test different ones.

 

[Claybuster]

And if you're shooting at distances you haven't both confirmed your zero at and confirmed your ability to make a lethal shot through practicing in field positions at those distances, then you ARE less ethical in my opinion, and to suggest this is just not so is where the "errant nonsense" lies.

No argument. If you read my post you'll know that I made no suggestion of the kind. What is errant nonsense however is your continuing disdain and implied lack of ethics of those who choose not to reload:

I kind of suspect the majority of "factory only" hunters out there don't spend hundreds of dollars each year on factory ammuntion so they can put in some practice sessions shooting at distances that they'll be willing to pull the trigger at once the season starts.

I know factory-only shooters like that. I also know dedicated reloaders who are incapable of getting their fat butts off the 100 yard bench and shoot from field positions and at longer distances. Both are equally wrong. The simple act of reloading does not invest one with a higher standards of ethics or shooting ability nor justify sweeping accusations against those for whom factory ammunition is more than sufficient.

 

[MiG25]

being a reloader says nothing about a persons hunting prowess or ethics or even shooting skill for that matter.

many reloaders don't hunt at all.

i don't care about "extreme" performance or tweaking to the "Nth" degree. i just want one "good" load for a given rifle. a load capable of decent accuracy, or in the case of milsurps, shooting to the sights. using a bullet that is suitable for deer/bear/elk out to 200 yards.

oh yes, i also want to be able to go and shoot 50-100 hunting type rounds at a time without breaking the bank.

 

[kombi1976]

being a reloader says nothing about a persons hunting prowess or ethics or even shooting skill for that matter.

many reloaders don't hunt at all.

i don't care about "extreme" performance or tweaking to the "Nth" degree. i just want one "good" load for a given rifle. a load capable of decent accuracy, or in the case of milsurps, shooting to the sights. using a bullet that is suitable for deer/bear/elk out to 200 yards.

oh yes, i also want to be able to go and shoot 50-100 hunting type rounds at a time without breaking the bank.

Ditto!
Times 10!!

 

[Rick]

What is errant nonsense however is your continuing disdain and implied lack of ethics of those who choose not to reload:

Oh dear. Here comes the part where I have to quote myself again!

So in truth, if a hunter intelligently selects factory ammunition for his 30/06, 300 Winchester, etc AND also purchases enough to do sufficient practice with each year before season opening (or limits himself to "sure thing" ranges and conditions), then that hunter is the equal as far as preparedness goes as anyone who reloads.
and
If you purchase enough factory ammo to find a brand and type that meets your requirements, and then purchase enough each year so that you are a proficient marksman capable of hitting with certainty at distances beyond "sure thing" distance, then cool.

Having said that, tell us: just what specific range do you shoot at where you see the majority of hunters who only use factory ammunition showing up numerous times before the start of each season and going through boxes of ammunition practicing. I've never seen that myself, either at the Lower Mainland or here in the Kootenays. Clearly, you come from an area with ranges where a very different set of circumstances can be observed. For the audience, could you provide us with your rough estimate of what percentage of your local "factory only" shooters do any significant amount of shooting prior to heading afield with blood in their eye and tags in their pocket?

Errant nonsense is assuming or inferring that most - or even half - of these people are all regularly shooting with their factory ammunition, practicing for the upcoming season. I just want to know what range you shoot at where the factory-only hunters are going through ammunition by the truckload before hunting season. Having been an RO here in BC, I haven't seen that phenomena at all - although I'm sure it exists somewhere.

I know factory-only shooters like that. I also know dedicated reloaders who are incapable of getting their fat butts off the 100 yard bench and shoot from field positions and at longer distances. Both are equally wrong.

Rubbish. A properly sighted in rifle is better than no sighting in. And some practice, even lacking shooting at distance and from field positions, is better than NO practice at all. To propose that both situations are identical is, well... errant nonsense!

The simple act of reloading does not invest one with a higher standards of ethics or shooting ability nor justify sweeping accusations against those for whom factory ammunition is more than sufficient.

Maybe if I keep quoting myself back to you long enough, you'll finally read it:

So in truth, if a hunter intelligently selects factory ammunition for his 30/06, 300 Winchester, etc AND also purchases enough to do sufficient practice with each year before season opening (or limits himself to "sure thing" ranges and conditions), then that hunter is the equal as far as preparedness goes as anyone who reloads.
and
If you purchase enough factory ammo to find a brand and type that meets your requirements, and then purchase enough each year so that you are a proficient marksman capable of hitting with certainty at distances beyond "sure thing" distance, then cool.

I guess where we differ is you seem to live someplace where the majority of "factory only" hunters buy box after box of hunting ammunition and regularly shoot and practice before hunting season. And I've never seen anything like that, either at the Lower Mainland or here in the Kootenays.

And of course, I'm also silly enough to believe that hunters who reload all those rounds actually then fire all those rounds. Seeing as there's only so many tags available, I suspect the rounds not fired at game end up getting used confirming zero, practicing, and shooting just for the plain fun of it - which is also practice. If that's so, then I'm just crazy enough to believe that all that extra tuning and practicing is almost certainly going to make them a better shot than the person who doesn't shoot at anything other than game. The only other alternative is that they reload the ammunition and then go bury it in the ground somewhere - an offering to the hunting gods, perhaps. And I think that's highly unlikely.

 

[ninepointer]

Here's why I shoot factory ammo and I do not reload:

I am a hunter. In addition to hunting deer with a rifle, I hunt with a bow, plus some I hunt a bit of small game and waterfowl with a shotgun. I have a hunting dog that I trained myself. I also have a wife, young kids and I work full-time. By the way, I also have friends and a few other interests outside of guns and hunting. I think my situation is pretty typical. Here's the problem (sorry but I have to make generalizations):

The reloaders say that there is something wrong with me because I do not take the time to reload and practice with thousands of rounds year-round so that I can hit a tennis ball at 250 yards;

The deer hunters say that there is something wrong with me because I don't go out 3 times per week to scout and pattern the deer;

The archers say that there is something wrong with me because I do not fletch my own arrows and shoot 300 arrows per week year-round;

The shotgunners say there is something wrong with me because I do no shoot weekly rounds of sporting clays;

The hunting dog crowd says that there is something wrong with me (and my dog) because I don't trial my dog or belong to the local club.

In order find the time to meet everybody's expectations as noted above, I would have to be independently wealth to quit my job; I would have to leave my wife and kids; and I would have to give up all my other hobbies and interests.

Like most people, I dedicate as much time as a can to certain hobbies and I strive to get better at those hobbies over time. I also balance my hobbies and interests with the realities of life. I am not prepared to cater to the self-congratulatory "standards" of those people who are able to take individual activities, like reloading, to a higher degree. I might reload someday, but not for now.

I get a deer or two every year, as well as a lot of rabbits and some grouse, ducks & geese. On the rare occasion I do miss. I'm sure that I would be lousy at shooting bighorn sheep at 400 yards, so please don't invite on your sheep hunt yet.

I shoot factory ammo and this does not make me a worse person than anybody else.

Ninepointer

 

[Rick]

being a reloader says nothing about a persons hunting prowess or ethics or even shooting skill for that matter.

Well, the issue of whether you reload or not isn't really relevant to your hunting skills - excepting marksmanship of course. And there are many ways to be unethical while hunting other than shooting at game with a poorly tuned rifle and little or no practice.

However, would anybody put their money on the table to bet against the statement that hunters that reload as a group put a lot more time into making sure their rifle hits at point of aim and practicing than hunters as a group who only fire factory ammo? I don't think even Claybuster would cover that - it's a sucker bet.

Lots of fish and wildlife clubs run turkey shoots to raise money, and most of those generally have at least one stage - if not the whole thing - centered around shooting big game rifles at field positions. I have NEVER seen somebody walk in and win one of those shooting factory ammunition. I'm sure there's lots of factory ammunition more than capable of winning such a match in any number of rifles - particularly for offhand shooting which is most often used. But there isn't anyone around shooting enough factory ammunition to compete. I'm sure it does happen somewhere, once in a while; I've just never seen it.

oh yes, i also want to be able to go and shoot 50-100 hunting type rounds at a time without breaking the bank.

Well, at a charitable $20/box, that's $50 - $100 per trip to the range with your hunting rifle. I certainly have no issues with "factory only" hunters who do that three or four times each year before hunting season. Even one box per session until the skill level was where it should be for the expected ranges would be appreciated by me.

The problem is, most "factory only" hunters don't do that - if they did, I would see them at the range repeatedly and their names in the sign in book. And I don't.

Once again, I have no issues with people who restrict themselves to shooting at ranges within which their equipment and their skills make a lethal hit a near certainty - no matter how little they shoot or how mediocre their equipment. The next door neighbor was like that when I was a kid: Gunther hunted with a rusty old .32 Special that received no care whatsoever and had a pathetic bore. The sights were probably rusted in place, which was probably a good thing because that rifle was never going to see a range again as long as he owned it, so the less they could move the better. He never fired a shot at anything other than game as long as I knew him up until the day he died. Every year he shot his elk from one of two or three stands he used up the St. Maries. I doubt any of those elk were ever shot from further than 40 yards away, and every one was shot by Gunther using a rest. He might have used up the better part of two boxes of factory ammunition during that time - but I doubt it. He's an extreme example, but there's a guy who didn't care about a nice rifle, marksmanship, the best available ammunition... but he was ethical enough to do his shooting at "sure thing" ranges. And that works for me.

 

[beretta boy]

.... and Bartell ( s*** disturber that he is ) is LHAO at all the shenanigans !!!

 

[Claybuster]

Rick, our exchanges have degenerated beyond the point of any usefulness.

We would appear to agree that any practice is better than no practice and that proper practice, including shooting at various ranges from various positions, is best of all. We can disagree about the rest.

And that's where I'm going to leave this discussion because if all you are prepared to do is quote your own posts (a not unique form of Internet onanism) then you can do that by yourself. Have a good hunting season.

 

[MiG25]

what about practicing with a rimfire? or something that shoots 7.62x51? or even an sks? trigger time in field positions plinking at gophers, or cans or whatever goes a long way.

i do agree that the average reloader is probably a better shot and probably has a rifle that is sighted in better than the average non-reloader. note i say probably and average.

i reload quite a few different cartridges for various reasons, ranging from availability and price to light loads for older guns or heavier loads in cartridges like the 8x57. i also, as recently as last season, shot game with factory ammo.

as long as people are ethical (know your limit and shoot within it) i don't care if they are using factory ammo or reloads.

 

[joe-nwt]

I have spent so much money on reloading equipment and components, I can't afford factory stuff.

Well, the odd time I grab a box of factory.

Just until the dies arrive, of course.

 

[Rembo]

Here's why I shoot factory ammo and I do not reload:

I am a hunter. In addition to hunting deer with a rifle, I hunt with a bow, plus some I hunt a bit of small game and waterfowl with a shotgun. I have a hunting dog that I trained myself. I also have a wife, young kids and I work full-time. By the way, I also have friends and a few other interests outside of guns and hunting. I think my situation is pretty typical. Here's the problem (sorry but I have to make generalizations):

The reloaders say that there is something wrong with me because I do not take the time to reload and practice with thousands of rounds year-round so that I can hit a tennis ball at 250 yards;

The deer hunters say that there is something wrong with me because I don't go out 3 times per week to scout and pattern the deer;

The archers say that there is something wrong with me because I do not fletch my own arrows and shoot 300 arrows per week year-round;

The shotgunners say there is something wrong with me because I do no shoot weekly rounds of sporting clays;

The hunting dog crowd says that there is something wrong with me (and my dog) because I don't trial my dog or belong to the local club.

In order find the time to meet everybody's expectations as noted above, I would have to be independently wealth to quit my job; I would have to leave my wife and kids; and I would have to give up all my other hobbies and interests.

Like most people, I dedicate as much time as a can to certain hobbies and I strive to get better at those hobbies over time. I also balance my hobbies and interests with the realities of life. I am not prepared to cater to the self-congratulatory "standards" of those people who are able to take individual activities, like reloading, to a higher degree. I might reload someday, but not for now.

I get a deer or two every year, as well as a lot of rabbits and some grouse, ducks & geese. On the rare occasion I do miss. I'm sure that I would be lousy at shooting bighorn sheep at 400 yards, so please don't invite on your sheep hunt yet.

I shoot factory ammo and this does not make me a worse person than anybody else.

Ninepointer

Ninepointer has nailed something that has bugged me for years.....you just can't keep all the followers of certain diciplines happy now , can you....?
just have fun.......

 

[Rick]

The reloaders say that there is something wrong with me because I do not take the time to reload and practice with thousands of rounds year-round so that I can hit a tennis ball at 250 yards;

Maybe you're overstating it and what they really mean is they don't care how you get the ammunition you use to practice - as long as you practice to the point you're not leaving the bush full of wounded animals. I've never heard any reloader claim that tennis ball accuracy is necessary at 250 yards - and certainly not within this thread.

The deer hunters say that there is something wrong with me because I don't go out 3 times per week to scout and pattern the deer;

Hmmm... been hunting deer for about 45 years now. Rarely scout and never try "patterning deer" - and have never heard a word of rebuke about it. Including from my acquaintances who trophy hunt deer and make annual pilgramages to the prairies once the season is done here. Tough crowd you run with there!

The archers say that there is something wrong with me because I do not fletch my own arrows and shoot 300 arrows per week year-round;

You DO run with a rough crowd. I'd heard lots bowhunters get on others because they couldn't be bothered to do any practicing before going afield to fling arrows at game. But I've never heard them getting down on somebody because they didn't fletch their own arrows. Big difference between criticizing somebody who thinks they don't need to practice before going bowhunting, and saying anything about the fact they don't fletch their own arrows. I'm lucky I guess - I don't fletch my own arrows and I've never heard a word of criticism from anyone else about that. But I do regularly shoot before hunting season...

Must be a kinder, gentler crowd here in BC!

The shotgunners say there is something wrong with me because I do no shoot weekly rounds of sporting clays;

Nope... don't shoot sporting clays either, and nobody I hunt upland birds with has ever said a nasty word to me about it.

The hunting dog crowd says that there is something wrong with me (and my dog) because I don't trial my dog or belong to the local club.

Man! That is one hard-bitten area you live in! Most of the guys I hunt with are involved in NAVHDA trials, NSTRA competition, etc. Our Griffons have never been to any of these events - and I have not heard one word of condemnation about this over the last ten years. Lots of invitations, but never anybody telling me there is "something wrong with me".

I'll have to make a note to never hit your neck of the woods! Never heard of a place with such a harsh bunch of sportsmen, nor received any of the kinds of criticism you're being abused with! People around here generally expect you to practice enough to be competent enough to not wound animals with bow or rifle and leave them running around with their jaws and legs blown off and whatnot - but that's about as far as it goes.

I shoot factory ammo and this does not make me a worse person than anybody else.

If you buy and shoot enough of it to know your zero and make a killing shot just about every time you pull the trigger on that rifle, you're absolutely correct.

 

[Rick]

And that's where I'm going to leave this discussion because if all you are prepared to do is quote your own posts (a not unique form of Internet onanism) then you can do that by yourself.

It's unfortunate that your ongoing inability to comprehend what I wrote - or deliberate obtuseness - and instead twist it into allegations of condemning anyone who doesn't reload made it necessary. Whether through simple ignorance or deliberate intent on your part, that's why I chose to remind readers of what I've said before you ever put your oar in.

Your perceiving it in a ###ual context added an interesting wrinkle, however.

Now you go have a good hunting season as well.