Why 45/70 and not .458 Win Mag?

1899

1899

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So the .45/70 seems to be very popular, with many folks singing its praises. It got me thinking, the .458 Win Mag fits in pretty much any bolt action and, considering the design of the ever popular M1895 Marlin, a well designed stock would probably not have much more felt recoil.

You could load the .458 Win Mag to "hot" .45/70 performance if you wanted to cruise, or pick it up in case you want to add +100 yards to your maximum range. How about 2650fps with a 350gr bullet for Moose, Elk and Bears? You could also load it with the wide range of cast bullets and more pointy bullets as well.

Is it the readily available supply of cheap (relatively) Marlin rifles that keep the .45/70 popular? With all the love for the .45/70, why isn't the .458 WM more popular?
 
.458 Win Mag has massive amounts of felt recoil compared to .45/70 and really isn't well suited to general hunting activities in North America except for perhaps Bison and Grizzly. Way more gun than you need for deer, elk or even moose. However, if you want to use it, why not?
 
1899 said:
Is it the readily available supply of cheap (relatively) Marlin rifles that keep the .45/70 popular? With all the love for the .45/70, why isn't the .458 WM more popular?
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I think that's the biggest problem, especially since Winchester dropped the caliber in their rifle lineup a long time ago.

Currently I believe the only factory rifles for the .458 are the CZ550 line, since Remington recently dropped their Zastava 798's.
 
Why fool around, get a 460 wthby. Could be the beer talking.

The 458 and 45/70 are both wonderful rounds. Cast up some bullets and head out plinking gophers. You won't be undergunned if a buffalo charges you.
 
X-man said:
.458 Win Mag has massive amounts of felt recoil compared to .45/70 and really isn't well suited to general hunting activities in North America
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Wouldn't those massive amounts of felt recoil be greatly reduced with light loads and light bullets?

I'm wondering if a Ruger or M98 with a good stock would not deliver felt recoil less than a lever gun with equal loads, something like a 350gr Hornady RN in the 458 going the same velocity as a 45/70.

.
 
The 45/70 is avail. in handy, fast , and LIGHT, leverguns, the .458 Mag. is avail in heavy, cumbersome boltguns, and in my opinion, the 45/70 does better with reduced loads than the .458.
 
X-man said:
.458 Win Mag has massive amounts of felt recoil compared to .45/70 and really isn't well suited to general hunting activities in North America except for perhaps Bison and Grizzly. Way more gun than you need for deer, elk or even moose. However, if you want to use it, why not?
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If you want a short to medium range big game cartridge I think the .458 can be quite versatile. The examples I've owned have handled recoil much better than an 1895 Marlin which with heavy loads I found somewhat unpleasant, particularly with the older version with the plastic butt plate. Because the .458's velocity is not terribly high a heavy cast bullet is a good choice, and one of Ben's hard cast WFN 480 gr slugs is both accurate and hard hitting. Even the 405 gr Remington bulk bullets designed for the .45/70 makes a good practice bullet. My pal Pounder likes the the 450 gr X in his, and after my teasing that a .458 is a pistol cartridge (as is any straight wall cartridge shorter than 3") he's since upgraded to .458 Lott. Actually he switched because a .458 Winchester factory round fired in his 602's long magazine.
 
The .45-70 was at one time a U.S. Governmemt cartridge.That being the case the cartridge remains popular as there are many old rifles available for it.

With new manufactured rifles the .45-70 cartridge can be hand loader to much higher speed than the factory loads ,which have to keep pressure low for use in the older .45-70 rifles.

The .458 Winchester was designed as a special use cartridge(large dangerous game).There was/are a limited number of rifles that have been manufactured because of this.
 
I think it's the name, 45-70 government. It just sounds cool.

I mean it's almost as cool as .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer. :D
 
SuperCub said:
Wouldn't those massive amounts of felt recoil be greatly reduced with light loads and light bullets?

I'm wondering if a Ruger or M98 with a good stock would not deliver felt recoil less than a lever gun with equal loads, something like a 350gr Hornady RN in the 458 going the same velocity as a 45/70.

.
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I think the same thing. A well stocked .458 would probably have less felt recoil than an equally loaded 1895 Marlin.


Boomer - I agree with the versatility - from mild cast loads to well over 4000ft-lbs and everything in between. Seems like the round would be quite usefull for those who want/like something in .458" caliber.
 
45-70 is a lot more practical then the 458 win mag. Brass is readily available and cheaper, and I don't need anything more then a hot 45-70 load on this continent.
 
I'm thinking that if the point of having the .458wm is to load it light to 45-70 velocities to handle recoil, then you might as well just have the 45-70 in the first place.

500gr Barnes TSX full load out of a .458wm sure does body slam black bears though :p
 
Dukeoflawnchair said:
I'm thinking that if the point of having the .458wm is to load it light to 45-70 velocities to handle recoil, then you might as well just have the 45-70 in the first place.

500gr Barnes TSX full load out of a .458wm sure does body slam black bears though :p
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The point is you can load it down if you want to. But I see people's point; most seem to feel recoil and cost are the issue.
 
Why would a 45-70 be any cheaper, creat less meat damage or have any less recoil than the 458 if your using the same basic loads. The 458 can be cranked up for sure, but doesn't have to be.
 
ben hunchak said:
The 45/70 is avail. in handy, fast , and LIGHT, leverguns, the .458 Mag. is avail in heavy, cumbersome boltguns, and in my opinion, the 45/70 does better with reduced loads than the .458.
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What would be interesting if someone released a Ruger Frontier or Remington 600 type bolt rifle in .458 wm. With a properly designed stock for reducing felt recoil, it would be quite a rifle.
 
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