Why 45/70 and not .458 Win Mag?
- Thread starter 1899
- Start date
X2
I have a Mauser M98 in 458 WM, and with a 400gr RN at 2250 fps it indeed does have much less felt recoil than a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 shooting hot (for the 45/70) 400gr handloads at just over 2000 fps. The M98 stock is better at absorbing recoil, and it doesn't have as many "pinch points" (such as the lever), either.
I'm surprised that no-one is claiming that the "45/70 can do everything the 458 WM can do" by now. We've had many threads claiming that in the past.
When you say "3x the felt recoil of a 45-70".....are you talking the light 45-70 loads made for the springfield or a stout 45-70 load for a modern rifle? If its the latter, I don't know if I'd want to fire it (ok maybe once or twice).
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Nothing wrong with a .458 Win, but honestly, a .375 H&H does everything it does, better. You can load bullets up to 380grs at 2,200fps, or as light as 235grs well into the 3000's fps wise. Or, the standard, 270grs at 2,700fps and you're shooting as flat as a .30-06 180gr. While I like the .458 a lot more than the .45-70, I scratch my head at why one would bring a .458 Win to Africa over a .375 H&H. .458 Lott, now that's starting to go places...
It won't be 3x the felt recoil of a full power 1895G load. As pointed out the Marlin isn't designed to properly dissipate very heavy recoil. You can have two rifles with the same recoil in ft-lbs, but one will be very comfortable while the other will be downright painfull. Much of felt recoil depends on the stock design.
Marlin 1895G - 7 lbs
1. 400gr bullet @ 1850fps - 58gr of powder (from Speer #12)
recoil = 42.77 ft-lbs
2. 550gr Crater @ 1510fps - 44gr of powder (from Reloader's Nest)
recoil = 45.86 ft-lbs
.458 WM -let's say M98 with 20" barrel - 8 lbs
1. 400gr bullet @ 2300fps - 64gr of powder (from Barnes #1)
recoil = 54.78 ft-lbs
2. 400gr bullet @ 1400fps - 30gr of powder (from Speer #12)
recoil = 18.32 ft-lbs
3. 300gr TSX @ 2550 fps - 68gr of powder (Barnes #1)
recoil = 42.60 ft-lbs
4. 350gr North Fork SS @ 2550fps - 80gr of powder
recoil = 58.24 ft-lbs
This load would provide good expansion out to 400 yards and would drop 33" at that distance when zero is 206 yards.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm surprised that no-one is claiming that the "45/70 can do everything the 458 WM can do" by now. We've had many threads claiming that in the past.
Indeed, I argued with the ".45-70's a .458" crowd til I was blue in the face... then I realized there's just no point, they're not coming around.
I think you are correct, in part. There are more Marlins around and the factory loads do not have punishing recoil (relatively speaking). The real shoulder bruisers (other than a few specialty rounds) are being touted by handloaders.
The .458 WM, on the other hand, only comes with one level of factory ammunition.
As you have pointed out, and seems to have been ignored by some, the .458 WM would make perfect sense loaded down to top level .45-70 loads. With better stock design, a bit more weight, it would probably be very comfortable to shoot.
458
I have a Ruger #1 in 458 that I load down with 405 grn Remingtons. It is quite comfortable to shoot and I enjoy the big holes at the 100 yard range. While I have not used it for such, it would make a good short range deer rifle. I have considered making a 760/7600 pump gun in 458. Lots a Browning BAR's were converted to 458 and I think the 760/7600 is at least possible in theory. Cartridge length and pressure are fine, a 458 barrel could be threaded to a Remington barrel assembly "stub"- bolt face would have to be opened and magazine probably converted to single stack but ???? There are lots of 760/7600 fans on this site, what do you think?
I have a Ruger #1 in 458 that I load down with 405 grn Remingtons. It is quite comfortable to shoot and I enjoy the big holes at the 100 yard range. While I have not used it for such, it would make a good short range deer rifle. I have considered making a 760/7600 pump gun in 458. Lots a Browning BAR's were converted to 458 and I think the 760/7600 is at least possible in theory. Cartridge length and pressure are fine, a 458 barrel could be threaded to a Remington barrel assembly "stub"- bolt face would have to be opened and magazine probably converted to single stack but ???? There are lots of 760/7600 fans on this site, what do you think?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Pounder had a custom BAR done up in .458. The recoil was almost mild. But he spec-d out a very heavy barrel contour and the piece seemed to be quite muzzle heavy, if memory serves. I don't recall the length of the barrel, but it would have been interesting to cut it down to 20" and see how it handled then. He didn't keep it long after getting it built, but I can say I fired one.
Why not look at the .458 as a belted .45-90 Winchester? Case length is the same, use .45-90 load data from mild to hot (for a .45-90), everything from .457 round balls with light charges of Bullseye for rats to 300-500 gr cast with smokeless (SR 4759 my favorite)(Trailboss?) or black powder to full .458 loads.
The weight and stock design of typical .458 WMs would keep even hot .45-90 loads comfortable to shoot.
X2
I have a Mauser M98 in 458 WM, and with a 400gr RN at 2250 fps it indeed does have much less felt recoil than a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 shooting hot (for the 45/70) 400gr handloads at just over 2000 fps. The M98 stock is better at absorbing recoil, and it doesn't have as many "pinch points" (such as the lever), either.
I'm surprised that no-one is claiming that the "45/70 can do everything the 458 WM can do" by now. We've had many threads claiming that in the past.
Andy, have you actually chrony'd .45-70 loads with 400gr bullets that were over 2,000fps MV? That is seriously hot! I have loaded 400gr Speers to 1900+fps MV and in that M-1895Gs, it is a viscious load. So if you pushed it even higher then it must be a 'bear' to shoot.
Those Guide guns have nasty recoil characteristics, when loaded to that extent. The M-1895XLR, with 24" barrel is a much nicer rifle to shoot, no matter how it is loaded.
From personal experience, I also learned, at least with the 400gr Speer, that bullets designed for that Marlin are not meant to be pushed to those type velocities. The Speers vaporized after hitting a black bear spine.
I stick to 2,000fps MV with the 350gr Hornady IL's and ~1650fps MV with the 400grs now. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to shoot anything yet with that 1650fps load, so I don't really know the terminal performance.
I am shooting 400gr Hawk bullets now. I unloaded those frangible Speers.
As far as comparing a .45-70 to a .458WM I don't get it. They are both great but they are NOT THE SAME and not intended to perform the same roll and I don't know why anybody would waste time with trying to get one to do what the other is intended to do.
FWIW, I have 2 .45-70's and a .458Lott, which was originally .458WM before reaming out the chamber of my CZ-550. So I have some range time shooting all three, with avg to hot loads.
The Marlin Guide Gun gun I shot with the 2000+ fps 400 gr loads was not mine, but a friend's. It was chronied right there at just over 2000 fps (something like 2020, 1990, 2015, etc.), and among the few guns I've shot that was bordering on painful. Not as much the push, but the mechanics of the stock and how it transferred it to my shoulder and hand - and I shot it freehand. I shot it about five times and pretended it wasn't as bad as it was. My mauser-based 458 WM with much faster loads with the same bullet weight, was nowhere near as bad, and from the bench. It was all about the stock design and fun weight and not the cartridge.
Two different rounds for different perposses. I think the .458 is very popular, just depends who you talk to/what circles you travel in. I've had several .458s but now have gone to a 4570 GG and a Lott. Personnally I find full power .458s to be way more recoil than full power 4570/GG loads.
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Yep, but then wouldn't it make more sense to shoot a standard caliber such as the .30-06 if you're downloading the .458 Win Mag to that level? Components are a heckuva lot cheaper and factory ammo, in addition to being much, much cheaper, is far more readily available.
I like the .458 Win Mag, but a truly "practical" caliber it isn't unless I ever make it to Africa. When I do shoot it, I'm gonna' shoot is as a .458 Win Mag, otherwise, why bother?
Incidentally, I just picked up a new Marlin 1895CB "Cowboy" in .45/70 Govt. with the 26" octagonal bbl. I'm going to use it on Moose and Black Bear next year. Will be a switch from my usual .30 cal or 7mm Rem Mag bolt guns!
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Demonical, Ken Waters lists loads that will drive a 400 gr cast bullet at 1900 or so. I got my load from his Pet Loads. I'm sure that in a shorter barrel it wouldn't have gotten to 1950 like they did. But in a Guide Gun, I'm with you...too hot. WAY too hot!
I've got a 1885 Browning in 45-70. Not sure what it weighs but I do know that it spits 418 gr cast bullets at 1950 FPS and is the meanest rifle I've ever owned or fired. It kicks markedly harder than my #1H 458 Win does with 500 grain factory loads and even worse than my Ruger M77 RSM 416 Rigby with 400 grain bullets at 2400 FPS. Probably has a lot to do with the weight of the rifle and the stock design. I'm sure that in rifles of comparable weight the 458 would far outclass the 45-70. There's a reason you don't run across many 7.5 lb 458 Winchesters.
I think I'd send my 1895CB down the road if I could find a comparably priced CRF 458. But until then...
I've got a 1885 Browning in 45-70. Not sure what it weighs but I do know that it spits 418 gr cast bullets at 1950 FPS and is the meanest rifle I've ever owned or fired. It kicks markedly harder than my #1H 458 Win does with 500 grain factory loads and even worse than my Ruger M77 RSM 416 Rigby with 400 grain bullets at 2400 FPS. Probably has a lot to do with the weight of the rifle and the stock design. I'm sure that in rifles of comparable weight the 458 would far outclass the 45-70. There's a reason you don't run across many 7.5 lb 458 Winchesters.
I think I'd send my 1895CB down the road if I could find a comparably priced CRF 458. But until then...
^ BUM, agree. The Guide Gun stock profile is terrific, as regards quick, easy handling. Shooting it offhand, carrying it in the timber, it's fantastic!
Off the bench, with hot loads it's a nasty thing!
What I haven't tried, is shooting those 1900+fps 400gr'ers out on my M-1895XLR. I would bet the handling and recoil characteristics would be much more user friendly.
Anybody?
FWIW, due to the utter failure of the Speer 400gr bullets, I decided to reduce my load to 1650fps, as I said. Just haven't had the opportunity to test test the terminal performance, on a critter yet.
Off the bench, with hot loads it's a nasty thing!
What I haven't tried, is shooting those 1900+fps 400gr'ers out on my M-1895XLR. I would bet the handling and recoil characteristics would be much more user friendly.
Anybody?
FWIW, due to the utter failure of the Speer 400gr bullets, I decided to reduce my load to 1650fps, as I said. Just haven't had the opportunity to test test the terminal performance, on a critter yet.
- Location
- Calgary, AB
The Marlin is gonna take a pounding and so will the shooter with 400gr loads at 2000fps. Considering a .458 can easily push 500gr bullets at 2200fps, there is simply no comparison. It's a great cartridge, but has limitations like any other. Then again, the .460 trounces both
