Why are Canadian's too good to patch when they shoot?

[96Brigadier]

if we started working on this for next years Nationals, it could be done I bet. Storms idea of local groups for patching has merit. Talk to local reserve units and such. We had army guys at WS in Ecuador.
as for staying with your family, I think if an RO wanted to bring his whole family while he worked a match, then he'd be paying for their hotel room and airfare obviously. He might get a per diem for his room and airfare but that's it. IPSC should only have to pay for the RO, not his support team.

Absolutely, I didn't mean that his family should be paid for, only that s/he would want to stay with their family and as a result bunking two match officials per room wouldn't necessarily work. A per diem as you said would though.

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

if we started working on this for next years Nationals, it could be done I bet. Storms idea of local groups for patching has merit. Talk to local reserve units and such. We had army guys at WS in Ecuador.
as for staying with your family, I think if an RO wanted to bring his whole family while he worked a match, then he'd be paying for their hotel room and airfare obviously. He might get a per diem for his room and airfare but that's it. IPSC should only have to pay for the RO, not his support team.

This is completely correct. It's not difficult to figure out.

I can't believe that people are treating this concept of a "fair" nationals like a new idea! How many times do I have to keep repeating: We are the only region in the world that makes light of our National match in this manner. The rest of the world runs their level III's properly, why can't we do it for the one important match in the whole year???????

 

[Dragoon]

Storms idea of local groups for patching has merit. Talk to local reserve units and such. We had army guys at WS in Ecuador.

Well this isn't Ecuador...... A couple of years ago I was the 'Domestic Operations' officer for 41 Canadian Brigade Group; the Army Reserve in Alberta. From my experience in that position, any request such as the one you suggest would not be granted....unless the organization was willing to pay the soldiers' wages and expenses.

He might get a per diem for his room and airfare but that's it.

I'm an IROA RO and I received an e-mail yesterday inviting me to apply to RO the European Handgun Championships (Lvl IV) in France this September. This is what is being offered to the ROs:

The host will provide the following:

-Match fee (Pre-Match)
-Hotel double accommodation (you will pay half if you have a
companion)
-Breakfast at the hotel in the morning
-Lunch supplied at the range
-$20 per diem dinner allowance
-Up to $500 to cover your travel expense
-Airport and range transportation
-Dinner one night for all Officials
-Competitor's match package

 

[AlexS]

RO's

Well this isn't Ecuador...... A couple of years ago I was the 'Domestic Operations' officer for 41 Canadian Brigade Group; the Army Reserve in Alberta. From my experience in that position, any request such as the one you suggest would not be granted....unless the organization was willing to pay the soldiers' wages and expenses.



I'm an IROA RO and I received an e-mail yesterday inviting me to apply to RO the European Handgun Championships (Lvl IV) in France this September. This is what is being offered to the ROs:

See that's all fine and dandy. This is a Level IV match, a huge deal. With a big fat entry fee. The point is a country like El Salvador can run a Level III also at $150 entry fee. The place where the Euro championships WILL BE held at Cheval Blanc puts on the Med-Cup every year. 24 stages, 400 rounds 2 and a half days of shooting, with a 100 euro entry fee. Runs like a clock. Most stages we don't even have to patch our own targets. Awesome match!!!
WHY CAN'T WE DO IT?

 

[96Brigadier]

The point is a country like El Salvador can run a Level III also at $150 entry fee.
WHY CAN'T WE DO IT?

I don't believe we can pay people a few bucks per day and keep them happy as can be done in countries like El Salvador. Wages, hotel, food, and transportation costs etc. are different in different parts of the world - in some places they are exceedingly cheap, in other places they are exceedingly expensive. That doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done here too, but a country like El Salvador being able to do it isn't a fair comparison.

At the end of the day it comes down to dollars and cents. Either we in Canada can afford to spend the money to do it like other countries or we can't. We still have to keep in mind that some countries have sponsorships to offset the costs (USA) while others have cheap labour, accomodations, and food (El Salvador). Canada is neither of those places, so who would be similar to Canada in costs (keeping in mind distance to travel has a direct bearing on costs too)and how do they do it? If someone else like us can do it then so can we.

 

[MOBILE 1]

It is hard to believe so many people can not get the fact that you do not need some one else to patch for you. Rob L , Eric G , Todd G, TT , JJ and all the other top shooters in the world can patch targets but we Canadians can't? You can give any excuse you want . You want the time for socializing , the RO does not have to call for
patchers , you need the time to get ready. First you can not socializing at the same time as patching targets , it is like chewing gum and walking at the same time it is not that difficult to do. If a RO is calling for patchers that only means the squad is lazy and is a sad statement about some shooters in this country period. The last one is my personal favorite " you need time to get ready " If the time you have in the walk through and waiting to shoot is not enough you are screwed already. As for cleaning mags and reloading your mags how long can it take it is 10 rounds.what is wrong with for example a 10 person squad ( that is the size of most squads ) The person on deck , the person that just finished shooting and the person be for him do not reset the stage. That leaves 7 people to reset the stage . that is more than enough time and people for any stage.


As for paying for dedicated RO staff. This to is not that difficult to solve either. Most times at the nationals the staff does not finish the match.
If you have a dedicated RO staff there is no reason you can not shoor the match in 3 days. Lets say Thursday , Friday and Saturday now this will give the staff a extra day to finish their match ( bonus to the staff ).
Look at paying for it. This years nationals is $195 . For easy figure let say 200 competes that is $39,000. Move the match fee to $250.00. $50 should not make or break any body going to the nationals.
At $ 250.00 per entry is $50,000.00
Let's say at worse case you need 20 rooms at match rate of $109
Food at range lets say $8.00 per day per person
A $25.00 per day perdium for dinner per pereson per day.

Hotel rooms $6,540.00 x 14% = 7,455.60
food at range $ 960.00 ( 40 people at 3 days )
Dinner perdium $3,000.00 ) 40 people at 3 days )
a totatl of $ 11,415.60
Leaving $38,584.40 to put on the match ( a diffrence of $415.60 from the match fee right now )
Now take out the going in gift and replace it with a staff prize table . You will save alot of money there and make the staff happyer. Lastly the staff shoots for free.

Every body should be happy with that plan. Every body is in a hotel one less night saving every body money.

 

[Quigley]

Honestly guys...these calculations are rediculous...

No one is getting rich from hosting the Nationals...and there are expenses that you couldn't comprehend. I'm not saying it can or can not be done...I'm just pointing out the fact that your "cost" estimates are weak.

As someone who delivers projects for a living (and let's face it...this is just another project)...there's nothing worse that having an insufficient budget...and it doesn't make for a quality deliverable...

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually set up a Nationals...

Just my .02 or is that .03 (let's make it .04 and someone can patch for me)

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

Honestly guys...these calculations are rediculous...

No one is getting rich from hosting the Nationals...and there are expenses that you couldn't comprehend. I'm not saying it can or can not be done...I'm just pointing out the fact that your "cost" estimates are weak.

As someone who delivers projects for a living (and let's face it...this is just another project)...there's nothing worse that having an insufficient budget...and it doesn't make for a quality deliverable...

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually set up a Nationals...

Just my .02 or is that .03 (let's make it .04 and someone can patch for me)

No point asking anyone in Canada, because they always take the easy "traditional" way out. After all, having an impartial national match is the Canadian Tradition. Make all the competitors do the work and RO'ing so we don't have to be bothered with that! What crap!

We run level III's in Ontario, do we not? Do all the competitors have to work and RO at the provincials?? At the Guelph Open, now the Guelph Invitational??
I ran it as the match director in 2002, with dedicated RO's, so where's the problem? The nationals is just another level III!
WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL???

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

I don't believe we can pay people a few bucks per day and keep them happy as can be done in countries like El Salvador. Wages, hotel, food, and transportation costs etc. are different in different parts of the world - in some places they are exceedingly cheap, in other places they are exceedingly expensive. That doesn't necessarily mean it can't be done here too, but a country like El Salvador being able to do it isn't a fair comparison.

At the end of the day it comes down to dollars and cents. Either we in Canada can afford to spend the money to do it like other countries or we can't. We still have to keep in mind that some countries have sponsorships to offset the costs (USA) while others have cheap labour, accomodations, and food (El Salvador). Canada is neither of those places, so who would be similar to Canada in costs (keeping in mind distance to travel has a direct bearing on costs too)and how do they do it? If someone else like us can do it then so can we.

Nice try there, but no dice. I think shooters have to get out and shoot outside the tiny fishpond we're in!
El Salvador, and Panama more specifically, have to bring in IROA officials from all over South America and even the USA to run a match as their membership is to small. At the columbus cup last year, there were even RO's from Europe.
What do you think that costs? Do you think even their local officials work on banana picker wages??
Most people who shoot outside of North America are filthy rich, as shooting everywhere else costs so much it's left mostly to the wealthy. That includes the RO's. You just have no idea.
Forget central america then, what about Europe?? Everything costs more there than here.
EVERY ONE ELSE CAN RUN AN UNBIASED MATCH, INCLUDING SOME PROVINCES. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A PROPER NATIONALS?

 

[maurice]

No point asking anyone in Canada, because they always take the easy "traditional" way out. After all, having an impartial national match is the Canadian Tradition. Make all the competitors do the work and RO'ing so we don't have to be bothered with that! What crap!

We run level III's in Ontario, do we not? Do all the competitors have to work and RO at the provincials?? At the Guelph Open, now the Guelph Invitational??
I ran it as the match director in 2002, with dedicated RO's, so where's the problem? The nationals is just another level III!
WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL???

A dedicated RO for each stage/range sounds like the only way to run a match with that many competitors. BUT, I don't see the problem with squads patching targets. Maybe I am too green or I don't have enough experience shooting in different countries. I noticed when I viewed a DVD of the USPSA Limited Nationals, they all patched for their own squad.........

 

[Quigley]

We run level III's in Ontario, do we not? Do all the competitors have to work and RO at the provincials?? At the Guelph Open, now the Guelph Invitational??
I ran it as the match director in 2002, with dedicated RO's, so where's the problem? The nationals is just another level III!
WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL???

Well...

At about every second Level 3 we've had in the last few years (including last years Provicials) there was a shortage of workers...so using our "voluntter" system as an example may not be helping to prove your point.

IF you remember back to the Guelph Provincials (you were one of the MD's)...there was a shortage of workers on the first day (Julie and I closed up the stats shack to RO a range for the morning)

Last year in Kingston there was a shortage...at one point Bordon Z was on range one all by himself...

This is by no means a slight on the Match organizers...but it does point out the simple fact that at least in Ontario...getting volunteers can be a problem. It's always the same crew carrying the load for everyone else. WHat happens when they burn out?

When it comes to match staff...would you rather have a few too many...or not enough.

 

[96Brigadier]

Nice try there, but no dice. I think shooters have to get out and shoot outside the tiny fishpond we're in!
El Salvador, and Panama more specifically, have to bring in IROA officials from all over South America and even the USA to run a match as their membership is to small. At the columbus cup last year, there were even RO's from Europe.
What do you think that costs? Do you think even their local officials work on banana picker wages??
Most people who shoot outside of North America are filthy rich, as shooting everywhere else costs so much it's left mostly to the wealthy. That includes the RO's. You just have no idea.
Forget central america then, what about Europe?? Everything costs more there than here.
EVERY ONE ELSE CAN RUN AN UNBIASED MATCH, INCLUDING SOME PROVINCES. WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A PROPER NATIONALS?

If people outside of North America who shoot are filthy rich then it makes sense that it would be easier to bring in officials from other parts of the world on their own dime since they can afford to pay for it. That certainly isn't the case here, I for one am not filthy rich (although I hope to be one day ).

You keep saying that everyone else can do it so why can't we - well, then tell the powers that be how other Countries do it so they can learn, or point them in the direction of other people who may be able to shed some light on the subject. In fact, maybe this is a discussion for the IPSC Global Village where other people from those parts who already do it can tell Canada how it is done?

 

[MOBILE 1]

Honestly guys...these calculations are ridiculous...

No one is getting rich from hosting the Nationals...and there are expenses that you couldn't comprehend. I'm not saying it can or can not be done...I'm just pointing out the fact that your "cost" estimates are weak.

As someone who delivers projects for a living (and let's face it...this is just another project)...there's nothing worse that having an insufficient budget...and it doesn't make for a quality deliverable...

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually set up a Nationals...

Just my .02 or is that .03 (let's make it .04 and someone can patch for me)

Who said any thing about getting rich? How are my calculations ridiculous ?
All I am pointing out is for an extra $50 per competitor you can put together a nice package to entice people to staff the nationals. Why is this so difficult for people to grasp. We are the only country to do this. Why not listen to what the competitors want? O ya this is not about what the competitor's . It is about tradition .

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Well...

At about every second Level 3 we've had in the last few years (including last years Provicials) there was a shortage of workers...so using our "voluntter" system as an example may not be helping to prove your point.

IF you remember back to the Guelph Provincials (you were one of the MD's)...there was a shortage of workers on the first day (Julie and I closed up the stats shack to RO a range for the morning)

Last year in Kingston there was a shortage...at one point Bordon Z was on range one all by himself...

This is by no means a slight on the Match organizers...but it does point out the simple fact that at least in Ontario...getting volunteers can be a problem. It's always the same crew carrying the load for everyone else. WHat happens when they burn out?

When it comes to match staff...would you rather have a few too many...or not enough.

Got some news for you- had little to do with the provincials in 2003. Just did the registration and tore down most of the match. There were no ro's on thursday and fri due to bad organization. No such problem at my 2002 open.
Were you there? If you were, you'd know this.

Seems to me you just supported my argument:
Obviously even our volunteer system doesn't fulfill match needs. So I guess its time to offer incentives to get people out to work the matches, right?

People, you are still missing the point:
You can make people patch, you can make people carry water coolers around, you can make people do a whole manner of things other than shoot the match they paid an entry fee to shoot: all you get is a crappy match.
You can't make competitors referee each other-that means RO or scorekeep. When you do that, you don't even get competition, let alone a sporting event where athletes can get together and compete in fair play!
This HAS to be done by unbiased, dedicated officials.
I want someone to tell me how our present nationals format is fair and good.

 

[AlexS]

nationals format

If people outside of North America who shoot are filthy rich then it makes sense that it would be easier to bring in officials from other parts of the world on their own dime since they can afford to pay for it. That certainly isn't the case here, I for one am not filthy rich (although I hope to be one day ).

You keep saying that everyone else can do it so why can't we - well, then tell the powers that be how other Countries do it so they can learn, or point them in the direction of other people who may be able to shed some light on the subject. In fact, maybe this is a discussion for the IPSC Global Village where other people from those parts who already do it can tell Canada how it is done?

The NEC knows full well how to run a match properly. There are some pretty experienced people on that council. The present format is run by choice, not necessity. If one can't afford $250 or so for a nationals entry fee, don't shoot it. We have to pay the true cost of running a match. Better that than running nonsense.
By way 96brigadier, the entry fee for the Med Cup is 100 Euro, or about $155 canadian. 24 stages, 400 rounds, shot in 2 1/2 days, lots of trophies and even a few prizes raffled off. Just a small example.
Have you ever shot a canadian nationals?

 

[AlexS]

Nationals format

Honestly guys...these calculations are rediculous...

No one is getting rich from hosting the Nationals...and there are expenses that you couldn't comprehend. I'm not saying it can or can not be done...I'm just pointing out the fact that your "cost" estimates are weak.

As someone who delivers projects for a living (and let's face it...this is just another project)...there's nothing worse that having an insufficient budget...and it doesn't make for a quality deliverable...

I'd be interested in hearing from someone who has actually set up a Nationals...

Just my .02 or is that .03 (let's make it .04 and someone can patch for me)

Expenses I or we can't comprehend???
Have you ever run a Level III?
Or even a Level II?

 

[Quigley]

Well guys...look like you missed the point...

You can carry this thread on for 25 more pages...and you still won't get anywhere. There's way's to get things done...then there's this.

I'll leave you to it.

L8R

 

[Quigley]

Why not listen to what the competitors want? .

For the record...we do listen to what the competitors want. All of them...not just the small % that post on GunNutz...or the even smaller % that posted in this thread.

You guys are making some rather bold assumptions...backed up by incomlete calculations...

You can't determine the cost of something (in this case a Level 3 match) without considering the entire budget (all money in and all money out)

If you guys want to actually try and get something done...I'd suggest you get a proposal together. That's usually step 1...(Actually that would be step 2...determing that this has the support of majority of the competitors...that would be step 1)

You guys are being mighty generous with the RO's time on the range (even more generous with everyone elses money)...how many of them do you have on board? Let's call that Step 3

Of course I'm sure you guys considered that piloting something like this (it is a rather foundational level change to the regular format) at a Nationals might be considered a tad risky...so I'm sure you have another Level 3 match / club in mind to see how it works before you make your pitch. Have you consider a host club to pitch this to (ya know they do have something to say about the format)

So far...this is going no where.

OK...now I'm done

 

[Quigley]

This HAS to be done by unbiased, dedicated officials.
I want someone to tell me how our present nationals format is fair and good.

Alex...

If you want to make an arguement that changing RO's half way through the match makes for inconsistency...you may have an arguement...

If you try and make this about being bias (just a nice way of saying cheating)...you're not going to get very far.

OK now I'm done

 

[sevoman]

I for one,would quite happily pay a higher entry fee for a large match,if that meant not having to sit around for half the entire match patching one or two targets(yes, I have 'worked' at some matches where 5 of us patched about 8 targets)

i am self employed,so those extra 2 or so days that i have to take to "work" the match means no income for that time,add that to extra meals,accomodation,car hire etc,and the extra 1-200 dollars seems quite a deal.

As regards having time to "socialise"at the range,I would rather have the opportunity to see the local attractions with friends or family if Im travelling halfway across the country.In either case,the wife is never that keen to come along to a big match if it means that I am at the range for the whole time anyway

Ive shot in matches in other parts of the world,where they got the local scout troop to patch targets,set props etc,also what is the problem with patching your own squads targets during a match?,in a large squad there is still plenty of time to get prepared for when you shoot,load mags etc,and Im sure that it would be pretty obvious if any dishonest behaviour occured(how is it any different if your buddy patches for you in the work stage or when he is in your squad?)

As detailed in previous posts,the idea of paying the expenses of the RO's to officiate a big match(while having them have an opportunity to shoot the match before everyone else,RO match day),would mean much more consistent officiating

Perhaps if this were all to happen,more people would show up to the big matches ,not having to take almost a week off work?