Why are Canadian's too good to patch when they shoot?

[AlexS]

been done.

For the record...we do listen to what the competitors want. All of them...not just the small % that post on GunNutz...or the even smaller % that posted in this thread.

You guys are making some rather bold assumptions...backed up by incomlete calculations...

You can't determine the cost of something (in this case a Level 3 match) without considering the entire budget (all money in and all money out)

If you guys want to actually try and get something done...I'd suggest you get a proposal together. That's usually step 1...(Actually that would be step 2...determing that this has the support of majority of the competitors...that would be step 1)

You guys are being mighty generous with the RO's time on the range (even more generous with everyone elses money)...how many of them do you have on board? Let's call that Step 3

Of course I'm sure you guys considered that piloting something like this (it is a rather foundational level change to the regular format) at a Nationals might be considered a tad risky...so I'm sure you have another Level 3 match / club in mind to see how it works before you make your pitch. Have you consider a host club to pitch this to (ya know they do have something to say about the format)

So far...this is going no where.

OK...now I'm done

You're flogging a dead horse. It's already been done, so it's not experimental at all. We already know it works. You're confusing it with being new to YOU! Because you don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're avoiding my question:
Have you ever run a Level III or even a Level II?
You seem to be lecturing the Windsor boys and myself on the intricacies of match finances. We've done it. Have you??????

 

[Quigley]

I'm not avoiding anything...

Nor am I lecturing the Windsor boys...

There were multiple "self serving" sets of calculations in this thread...

The "lets assume the best" manipulation of numbers to show how cheap it is version...and the "let's assume the worst" manipulation of the numbers to show we can't afford it version...

and both of them are incomplete...

But to anwser your question (and the implication that I don't know anything)...no...I have not put on any match (not even a Level 1) Funny though...I still seem to understand where this is going (and it doens't change the fact that these back of a match book calculations are worthless)

However, when were done beating the dead animals...maybe you can answer the question that is yet unanwsered...

What % of the members support this idea...and how many RO's are going to jump on board.

However...I do appretiate the history lesson.

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

I'm not avoiding anything...

Nor am I lecturing the Windsor boys...

There were multiple "self serving" sets of calculations in this thread...

The "lets assume the best" manipulation of numbers to show how cheap it is version...and the "let's assume the worst" manipulation of the numbers to show we can't afford it version...

and both of them are incomplete...

But to anwser your question (and the implication that I don't know anything)...no...I have not put on any match (not even a Level 1) Funny though...I still seem to understand where this is going (and it doens't change the fact that these back of a match book calculations are worthless)

However, when were done beating the dead animals...maybe you can answer the question that is yet unanwsered...

What % of the members support this idea...and how many RO's are going to jump on board.

However...I do appretiate the history lesson.

Never implied you don't know stuff. We've done it, and more specifically, I've done it exactly in the manner we're suggesting. So actually, we know what we are talking about based on experience. You can nitpick the numbers anyway you want, because it's not about numbers. It's about the concept. It HAS been done, and should be done always, especially at the Nationals.

As to your grand assumption that one can never call into question the fairness of the officiating, you should pull your head out of the sand.
There's a reason there are dedicated referees in EVERY other sport in existence. Competitors never referee each other.
This preserves the appearance of an un-biased sporting event.
It's called fair play.
What is it about sport and competition you don't understand?

As to who will support it: It is the DUTY of the match organizers to provide all shooter participants with fair un-biased officiating at every match. Especially at the premiere canadian match. This cannot be accomplished with the current format. Therefore it is flawed and should have been canned long ago. Does not matter who does or does not support it.
IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME!
They might even like it, and not leave the field of competition with axes to grind and disharmony among shooters and regions as has happened in the past.

 

[Quigley]

Never implied you don't know stuff. We've done it, and more specifically, I've done it exactly in the manner we're suggesting. So actually, we know what we are talking about based on experience. You can nitpick the numbers anyway you want, because it's not about numbers. It's about the concept. It HAS been done, and should be done always, especially at the Nationals.

As to your grand assumption that one can never call into question the fairness of the officiating, you should pull your head out of the sand.
There's a reason there are dedicated referees in EVERY other sport in existence. Competitors never referee each other.
This preserves the appearance of an un-biased sporting event.
It's called fair play.
What is it about sport and competition you don't understand?

Well actually...it is about the numbers...including how much it will cost, how many people support it...and how many RO's are happy to give up their match.

Concepts are just ideas...they die a pretty quick death without numbers

 

[stormbringer]

The part I resent about much of the ideas postulated is that as and R/O somehow I am EXPECTED to do much of the work. That somehow I am OBLIGATED to show up for a match and work it.

I R/O so that matches can be held. It is that simple. Without R/Os our game does not function. I do not R/O for the sake of R/Oing. For me it is NOT an end in itself. It is all part of getting a match going. I fully believe that EVERY competitor should attempt to be a R/O likewise they should be a MD once in a while. Spread the work around. Otherwise the people doing ALL THE WORK will certainly burn out as has happened time and time again.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Well actually...it is about the numbers...including how much it will cost, how many people support it...and how many RO's are happy to give up their match.

Concepts are just ideas...they die a pretty quick death without numbers

Boy, I keep repeating myself.
It's not a concept or idea. I've done it already. EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD DOES IT! It's only a concept or idea to YOU.

 

[Quigley]

Competitors never referee each other.
This preserves the appearance of an un-biased sporting event.
It's called fair play.
What is it about sport and competition you don't understand?

Alex...this is not Olympic Figure skating...there are no points for style...


We measuer everything with a timer and a ruler (position on the target)

As a competitor you get to follow the RO and check the targets...if you disagree...you can arbitrate...

This sport is supported by a very objective process with rules to back it up...there are no issues that come up that would be solved by dedicated RO's. If there is any bias present...it would still be there.

 

[Quigley]

Boy, I keep repeating myself.

Yes I've noticed...

It's not a concept or idea. I've done it already. EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD DOES IT! It's only a concept or idea to YOU.

You can nitpick the numbers anyway you want, because it's not about numbers. It's about the concept.

EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD DOES IT!

Really...in the 70 or so countries that have IPSC affiliation...Canada is the only one that does this.

 

[Quigley]

It's hard to keep this all straight..

Alex...where are you on the concept of competitors patching during the match?

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

The part I resent about much of the ideas postulated is that as and R/O somehow I am EXPECTED to do much of the work. That somehow I am OBLIGATED to show up for a match and work it.

I R/O so that matches can be held. It is that simple. Without R/Os our game does not function. I do not R/O for the sake of R/Oing. For me it is NOT an end in itself. It is all part of getting a match going. I fully believe that EVERY competitor should attempt to be a R/O likewise they should be a MD once in a while. Spread the work around. Otherwise the people doing ALL THE WORK will certainly burn out as has happened time and time again.

Yes you are right. RO's and CRO's and RM's and QM's ARE expected to work the match. That's what they do. They run the match. Without them there is no match. So, pretty much, when you go to a match, you expect to see RO's!

The problem at the nationals is , in case you haven't been to one, is that Shooters are expected to work. If you are not an RO, you have to patch. Stupid concept, but still no big deal.
Here's the problem: If you are current RO, you are expected to referee your fellow competitors. This is unaceptable as it does not preserve the notion of the single most important principle in sport: fair play, or the right of a competitor to an un-biased application of the rules.
This is a concept that a few(it's only a small minority) people in this region (Canada) find difficult to grasp. No other region in IPSC runs their matches the way we run our nationals. We don't need discord among shooters and regions which is the inevitable result of calls (right or wrong) by officials seen to be the competition. We don't need workers playing with stage props while they are "working" while nobody else is allowed to practise or even in most cases touch them. All this happens at every Nationals run this way.

All this causes rifts between us. While we are under the government gun, we shouldn't turn around and pull the triggers on ourselves. We need unity and sportsmanship among our regions and fellow shooters. It's a huge country.
Trust me, we're not right, and the rest of the world isn't wrong.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

It's hard to keep this all straight..

Alex...where are you on the concept of competitors patching during the match?

See my relpy to stormbringer.

 

[Quigley]

We don't need discord among shooters and regions which is the inevitable result of calls (right or wrong) by officials seen to be the competition.

The match officials in Ecuador (who did shoot the pre-match) did not have there scores removed for the overall results...

Would that not be the defacto match in IPSC regarding pulling out all the stops and using the most un bias process?

 

[Quigley]

See my relpy to stormbringer.

Kinda vague..."stupid concept but no big deal"

I'm going somehere with this so I'd like a yes or no if you please...should competitors patch at the Nationals?

 

[stormbringer]

Well Alex............when it comes to "THIS CRO" I can assure you most assuredly that if a match be they the nationals or a L1 is set up such that the R/Os are exempt from shooting........I will not be there. Plain and simple. As I said before, to me R/O ing is all part of the game. That anyone would play this game and only TAKE drives me round the bend. The same goes for patching. If you show up and do not patch you should be shown the door. (gate?).

This sport is VOLUNTARY we do not have the funds for people to officiate events it is that simple. Even if we did I think you would be VERY hard pressed to get people out to officiate if they were not allowed to shoot.

 

[AlexS]

Nationals

The match officials in Ecuador (who did shoot the pre-match) did not have there scores removed for the overall results...

Would that not be the defacto match in IPSC regarding pulling out all the stops and using the most un bias process?

Pre-match scores usually count for score along with the main match. Everyone does it this way. The same crews are on every stage officiating ALL competitiors the same way, good or bad. They are still not seen by the main match shooters to be the competition. It's about consistency. Not long ago, maybe before you started shooting, Canada didn't even have the CRO program. You'd get different interpretations of the walk-through every day. That was eventually forced into the format by someone with the sense to see what nonsense the nationals were. Pretty sure it was DB. Had you been there, you probably would have been crowing about how it's just an idea, nobody supports it,....... Someone had the balls to get it done.
Now, lets go the rest of the way and have dedicated RO's and scorekeepers, eliminate "patcher workers" from playing with props and figuring out the stages they are "working". Presto!! A normal match!!!!
I think only at the US nationals do the staff compete only amongst themselves.

 

[Quigley]

Pre-match scores usually count for score along with the main match. Everyone does it this way. The same crews are on every stage officiating ALL competitiors the same way, good or bad. They are still not seen by the main match shooters to be the competition.

I just checked my rule book...I couldn't find any reference to "the main match shooters"

What exactly does that mean??

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Well Alex............when it comes to "THIS CRO" I can assure you most assuredly that if a match be they the nationals or a L1 is set up such that the R/Os are exempt from shooting........I will not be there. Plain and simple. As I said before, to me R/O ing is all part of the game. That anyone would play this game and only TAKE drives me round the bend. The same goes for patching. If you show up and do not patch you should be shown the door. (gate?).

This sport is VOLUNTARY we do not have the funds for people to officiate events it is that simple. Even if we did I think you would be VERY hard pressed to get people out to officiate if they were not allowed to shoot.

I already answered you on this before. Nobody anywhere is saying RO's should'nt shoot. RO's are supposed to be shooters too. Where are you getting this from? You are right on one thing:
If more shooters took an active role in RO'ing matches, we'd be much better off. No one minority should be doing all the work for everyone else. In an ideal world, all shooters would help run at least one or two matches a year.
That would allow the guys and gals doing most of the RO load to also enjoy some matches without working them. Time to offer incentives for people to come out and do it. Make it more attractive. You can't count on the generosity and goodwill of all shooters to step up to do the thankless jobs that tireless officials like yourself gladly do. Sometimes people need a little extra motivation. It's human nature.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

I just checked my rule book...I couldn't find any reference to "the main match shooters"

What exactly does that mean??

What do you think it means?
The match staff shoots the pre-match, where they officiate each other, and the rest of the shooters shoot the main match where they are officiated by the officials who shot the pre-match. Sorry, didn't know you are not up with international match lingo.

 

[AlexS]

nationals

Kinda vague..."stupid concept but no big deal"

I'm going somehere with this so I'd like a yes or no if you please...should competitors patch at the Nationals?

I think you missed the part where I said we shouln't have "workers" playing with props or examining the stage they "work" all day, while the other shooters cannot even touch the props or be on the stage.
Somehow I think you might think this is a good thing....
Quit speedreading!!!

 

[Quigley]

What do you think it means?
The match staff shoots the pre-match, where they officiate each other, and the rest of the shooters shoot the main match where they are officiated by the officials who shot the pre-match. Sorry, didn't know you are not up with international match lingo.

...and how does this remove the possibilty of Bias or favouritism?

The only whay to do that (let's deal with Canada for now) would be to bring in all the match officials (save maybe the RM's) from another country and not allow them to shoot the match.

If bias for favouritism exists...it will continue to exist independedt of RO Schedule...

You side stepped some of my questions...so here's another one...

What if one of the top shooters decides he wants to shoot the prematch...and work the rest of the match as a dedciated RO?