Why are there no Cartridge Companies in Canada?
- Thread starter Teapot
- Start date
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Because Canadians do not believe in NATIONAL DEFENSE.
Unlike USA, German, Russia, China, Switzerland, Isreal,Taiwan, Singapore, and any other country that has the resources to afford to build the infrastructure, etc.
Profitability has nothing to do with it....
Jerry
Unlike USA, German, Russia, China, Switzerland, Isreal,Taiwan, Singapore, and any other country that has the resources to afford to build the infrastructure, etc.
Profitability has nothing to do with it....
Jerry
I figure Canadians beleive in National Defence just fine. Unfortunately, they also believe that the US will always be our friend and ally, and will always come to our aid.
Spending on Defence infrastruture is a soft target for saving a few bucks here and there too. The Liberal party has been pretty good at that. The Conservatives have their share to shoulder too. It wasn't JUST the Liberal Party that screwed us.
I read something interesting the other day. The United States just ordered 179 new Air to Air Refuelling Tanker's from Boeing. This will mean that they will very nearly have more air refuellers than Canada has Fixed wing Aircraft in it's Military inventory. Gives a good perspective on how much differently the US, as one example, is willing to spend to keep their Military going. And this in a time when they too are cutting back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Canadian_Forces_Air_Command
The concept of Strategic Capability is not lost on those folks making the decisions, but they sure do not make their decisions with it as a prime motivator.
Profitability has everything to do with it. No profit in it, makes folks find work they can profit by. That's one of the most basic tenets of being in business, no? Or is Mystic Precision a Charity operation running at a loss?
Cheers
Trev
Spending on Defence infrastruture is a soft target for saving a few bucks here and there too. The Liberal party has been pretty good at that. The Conservatives have their share to shoulder too. It wasn't JUST the Liberal Party that screwed us.
I read something interesting the other day. The United States just ordered 179 new Air to Air Refuelling Tanker's from Boeing. This will mean that they will very nearly have more air refuellers than Canada has Fixed wing Aircraft in it's Military inventory. Gives a good perspective on how much differently the US, as one example, is willing to spend to keep their Military going. And this in a time when they too are cutting back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Canadian_Forces_Air_Command
The concept of Strategic Capability is not lost on those folks making the decisions, but they sure do not make their decisions with it as a prime motivator.
Profitability has everything to do with it. No profit in it, makes folks find work they can profit by. That's one of the most basic tenets of being in business, no? Or is Mystic Precision a Charity operation running at a loss?
Cheers
Trev
- Location
- Eastern part of Western Canada
Firstly,
It is a small market relatively speaking with both the biggest market (next door) and profitability is always an issue. Buy a Canadian car. Oh wait there are none, there are cars made in Canada with parts made in Canada and some features demanded by Canadian law but they certainly aren't "Canadian" in the way that the puffed up national pride of the Avro Arrow and Potash fanatics would demand.
Secondly, I wouldn't be pinning your hopes on a shotshell factory in the Carberry area. Just saying...
It is a small market relatively speaking with both the biggest market (next door) and profitability is always an issue. Buy a Canadian car. Oh wait there are none, there are cars made in Canada with parts made in Canada and some features demanded by Canadian law but they certainly aren't "Canadian" in the way that the puffed up national pride of the Avro Arrow and Potash fanatics would demand.
Secondly, I wouldn't be pinning your hopes on a shotshell factory in the Carberry area. Just saying...
???Canadian Tire is a Canadian company has been around for 90 years and did carry most of the Canadian made ammunition mentioned in a previous post.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Canadians DO NOT PUT NATIONAL DEFENSE ON THE PAGE ONE OF MUST SPEND MONEY.
Thus the sad tales like the Arrow and various hand me down boats - they dont work so well in their intended role UNDERwater.
Look at the debate on our new joint fighter. We should be debating on how many more we need, not how to scrap the whole deal cause it is getting pricey.
And defense has never been profitable to the society that considers it important. Not profitable but pretty D@MN important.
You have plenty of info on what the US defense budget costs Americans. Not too many complaining.
And when a country considers defense important, the companies that produce the tools WILL be profitable.
I don't see any companies in Singapore, Taiwan or Switzerland singing the blues. What's the market place size for these countries? Any civilian sporting market in the first two?
We dont have ammo makers in Canada for the same reasons we don't build the vast majority of our military gear.
We just buy it as our 'obligations' demand. And we really don't want a lot of those.
Why make what you don't want to use?
Jerry
If I had a few million dollars kicking around to set up a munitions plant, then the last place I would set it up would be in Canada. Instead, it would be setup somewhere offshore and the ammo then shipped into the country.
Why? Government bureaucracy. They pride themselves on "inspecting" every little detail, and if they can't find a problem, then they go back for another kick to make sure they find one.
Taking over an existing business in Canada is one thing, but starting from scratch, not a chance.
Why? Government bureaucracy. They pride themselves on "inspecting" every little detail, and if they can't find a problem, then they go back for another kick to make sure they find one.
Taking over an existing business in Canada is one thing, but starting from scratch, not a chance.
Wow - I wasn't aware of these guys. However, they need a proper website something awful.
I wouldn't be surprised if 50-75%+ of their potential market will only be aware of them via their website; with a good website, I imagine they could turn over a lot more sales. And that, in turn, would be good for the industry in this company.
Do you think you would face significantly less headaches trying to import ammo in from offshore?
Not a problem to import if the ammo is manufactured to pass the NRCAN sniff test. No different than what ALL the ammo companies do today.
I have worked in getting projects approved both in Canada and abroad. There is a WORLD of difference, even when the projects are designed/built to exactly the SAME standards.
I know of one company that wanted to set up a major facility in Canada. They jumped through EVERY high, flaming hoop that was put in front of them, spending millions of dollars in the process. Every time they made it through one hoop, the approval agencies came back with ANOTHER higher hoop to jump through.
After four years, the agencies came back to them and said they were CLOSING THEIR FILE. Why? Because they had not obtained approval!!!
I believe that company is now looking elsewhere.
At one time they had Canadian products. Have you been there lately? Since when is China local? Canadian Tire now subscribes to the same conquer and defeat tactics as companies like Walmart. Canadian Tire has forced out a lot of small businesses, don't kid yourself.
Further to supplying Canadian products to Canadian Tire, is a feat all of its own. I've had personal experience with this. Unless you're national and big, they won't play ball with you, regardless of your ability to supply a share of the Canadian market.
Its not BS at all. How far does your argument go back? 50 years? 75? 100 years?
The OP is suggesting that there is a problem with the market, and the Market problems today are the same ones that existed and started 20 years ago. Canadians do not support their local businesses or their neighborhood shop because they can save a buck and a half by going to a large department store.
Its a great conversation, but I don't see very many people dumping their life savings in to a business that they themselves wouldn't support.
The market all comes down to the consumer. Canadians largely do not care where their products come from, as long as they can save a single dollar. This defines todays ammunition market 100%
It is bulls**t.
The fella that dragged CTire and Walmart into it, missed the fact that neither was a factor when Dominion then CIL then IVI, decided to wrap it up as Sporting Ammo sellers. Ammo was available in every gas station and hardware store, and that's where most guys bought it.
The list of names is bulls**t, because it is pretty much a plant list of places owned by the same guys. Dominion/CIL/IVI/SNC. Erase those and what have you left? Not as good a list. Pretty much all the same outfit, though, or evolution of the same.
The business went where the profit is. No profit, no business. Easy. The leftovers of IVI make military ammo in Canada, most likely because the contract says that it has to be made here, I'd bet. Otherwise they'd buy capability elsewhere and make more profit.
The short answer. There is no Sporting Ammunition Industry in Canada, because the guys that were in it made more money doing other things. They went away on their own, without the consumer abandoning them.
Any other answer is a bunch of huffing and puffing, making excuses.
Cheers
Trev
The fella that dragged CTire and Walmart into it, missed the fact that neither was a factor when Dominion then CIL then IVI, decided to wrap it up as Sporting Ammo sellers. Ammo was available in every gas station and hardware store, and that's where most guys bought it.
The list of names is bulls**t, because it is pretty much a plant list of places owned by the same guys. Dominion/CIL/IVI/SNC. Erase those and what have you left? Not as good a list. Pretty much all the same outfit, though, or evolution of the same.
The business went where the profit is. No profit, no business. Easy. The leftovers of IVI make military ammo in Canada, most likely because the contract says that it has to be made here, I'd bet. Otherwise they'd buy capability elsewhere and make more profit.
The short answer. There is no Sporting Ammunition Industry in Canada, because the guys that were in it made more money doing other things. They went away on their own, without the consumer abandoning them.
Any other answer is a bunch of huffing and puffing, making excuses.
Cheers
Trev
Yep. Because that was where the money (investors) as well as the manpower was. And the political connections.
But mainly the money.
Oh. And the entrepreneurs with money. Can't forget them.
At one time, they said that well over half the available cash money in Canada was controlled by people that lived in about a square mile in Montreal. These were the Anglo Oppressors that got chased out by the separatists. Still lots of money in that neighbourhood, though.
Look into the history of CIL, and see the linkages, and it no longer looks as impressive when seen as the same outfit evolving through different hands and renames.
Cheers
Trev
Because many Canadian owners never reinvest in timely manufactring upgrades, accepting the short term lower profit margin until it's too late. They become obsolete/ non competetive. Then they throw a tantrum blame taxes, labour costs, safety regs, gov't., small market; everything but their own greed/stupidity.
Now even the tantrum is unnecessary; thanks to an omnibus bill passed by the first Harper gov't, they can buy bankrupcy insurance and come out ahead of the game and profit from their greed a second time.
A new start up company's investment capital would be staggering and hard to justify. Whereas an existing company kepy current and competetive would still profitable in todays market. We are not alone in this owner brain fart mentality it's rampant in most of the western world. USA is suffering the most in this recession because of it. They still had many border line companies left now they've failed.
Now even the tantrum is unnecessary; thanks to an omnibus bill passed by the first Harper gov't, they can buy bankrupcy insurance and come out ahead of the game and profit from their greed a second time.
A new start up company's investment capital would be staggering and hard to justify. Whereas an existing company kepy current and competetive would still profitable in todays market. We are not alone in this owner brain fart mentality it's rampant in most of the western world. USA is suffering the most in this recession because of it. They still had many border line companies left now they've failed.
