In what ways? Honest question.
To be fair, you could say the same about Walther.
Why aren't HK pistols more popular?
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Having owned two USP 45 tacs, an HK45, 45C and a P30ls I have NEVER had a single hiccup in the thousands of rounds I have shot through all of them. Now, are there pistols out there that are both reliable and cheaper than HK, absolutely. I own a glock and as much as I like it you can definitely tell the difference in quality between it and any HK I have owned. The reason they are not that popular in Canada is that most people can't justify the price and also the fact that HKs aren't set up or as easily converted to competion guns as other brands are. A lot of people also have trouble with HK triggers, personally my USP tac's match trigger is easily the best trigger I have ever shot with. That is a matter of preference. Check out the links below to give you an idea of how "inferior, unreliable and finicky" the newer generation of HK pistols are.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668
My point here is that there's alternatives that are cheaper, simpler, easier to service and more reliable than what HK can charge almost double for, and rob you at gunpoint on the highway over a magazine. The HK45 and P30 are unnecessarily complex and don't offer any real advantages over the USP which was the last benchmark that HK set. It's clear that for over 20 years they've been trying to bring a new model to market that would best that design and possibly be adopted by any respectful fighting force, which they've failed completely. They keep stopping production of the MK 23 and bring it back every time because of it's popularity. Same with other USP models.
You need to work at a range or be at a range where we run 400-500 rounds through a gun, dry, to really see the wheat separate from the chaff. Run a newer HK gun dry on lube or with the slightest of carbon fouling and you get problems, big ones.
HK is now basically riding the coat tails of their brand image and their past engineering excellence, to deliver complete garbage that only fanboys get suckered into buying. Sorry, it's the honest truth.
You're not getting my point. If you run a range facility, it's like running a go kart track. You expect the karts, in this case, gun, to work the entire day and keep working for quite a while. You don't want a kart to stop halfway on the track or lose a wheel around a corner.
There's absolutely no way we can maintain the guns mid day by cleaning them and putting them back onto the line. We lube and clean them thoroughly once they get to a point where we feel it's necessary, but thats usually 400-500 rounds through multiple shooters hands, shooting constantly on and off throughout the day. Guns go dry very quickly. A rental range is not your typical shooting session where a box or two is shot, then thoroughly cleaned and maybe shot again in a month or two. Our guns are shot constantly and we expect them to do so without fail, through the ####tiest and cheapest ammo. HK's newer pistols do not meet this standard.
I've never run 500 rounds in a single session on my HK45, but I have gone longer than that interval without cleaning and had no negative effects. ToddG has gone more than 10x that interval without ill effects.
What HK guns were at this rental range?
P30L and HK45. They became fussy really fast and were eventually pulled off the line.
The bread and butter of ranges are Glocks in 9mm, .40 and .45. All proven winners and run like clocks, dry or lubed. We don't have to worry about plastic parts breaking off, the sights become shifted or any other of the issues experienced with HK pistols.
Again, the range treatment is nowhere even close to military or fighting force abuse, which is why no new HK pistol has ever been widely adopted by any respectable agency. I'm no salesman for glock but HK fanboys need to get their head on straight with their superiority complex. A gun with a 30 year history is still winning contracts no matter what other people produce.
Whole lotta lollin in this thread.
Anyway the answer to the original question is: limited availability of parts and accessories combined with lack of mainstream organizational use means limited cachet and most guys don't value the durability or reliability above weird German sponge triggers.
Anyway the answer to the original question is: limited availability of parts and accessories combined with lack of mainstream organizational use means limited cachet and most guys don't value the durability or reliability above weird German sponge triggers.
Only hk I've ever owed was a usp 9mm.....and the mag release is in such a absolutely retarded place couldn't get use to it.....sold it quick and damn I took a beating on it......it was a tough sell at 650$ with 3 mags.....these things don't move very fast....they are in EE all day for like 800 to 900......they won't sell....one of the worst I bought....I don't know if I'll ever roll the dice on an HK again unless I can hold it in my hand before purchasing........maybe one day we will get to own a mp5 in canada...but probably not in my lifetime
Wow, Conscript,
You sound like an expert. Are you familiar with the Department of Homeland Security Testing done in the early 2000's? Well you probably are not based on your posts. Let me assist: It was the most comprehensive and expensive test done on handguns since the US Armed Forces Test to replace the 1911 Gov. Pistol. Millions & months spent on the HS testing. Unbelievable standards. Example: sand chambers; light sand, medium sand, heavy sand, scientifically testing and evaluating each candidate. Same with mud. Guns shot wet, dry ect. You will never get to see the data because it's LE sensitive and will not be released to a non-LE. The guns were also shot to destruction in one phase.
They took all any and all manufacturers who would submit.....and the results....Joint contract awarded to HK and Sig Sauer. They were the only 2 brands that survived the testing. Glock did not finish. Now I love Glocks and was shooing one in competition probably before you were born. Glock is famous for completing extremely demanding testing....but in the Homeland Security testing they failed to finish.
Rich
You sound like an expert. Are you familiar with the Department of Homeland Security Testing done in the early 2000's? Well you probably are not based on your posts. Let me assist: It was the most comprehensive and expensive test done on handguns since the US Armed Forces Test to replace the 1911 Gov. Pistol. Millions & months spent on the HS testing. Unbelievable standards. Example: sand chambers; light sand, medium sand, heavy sand, scientifically testing and evaluating each candidate. Same with mud. Guns shot wet, dry ect. You will never get to see the data because it's LE sensitive and will not be released to a non-LE. The guns were also shot to destruction in one phase.
They took all any and all manufacturers who would submit.....and the results....Joint contract awarded to HK and Sig Sauer. They were the only 2 brands that survived the testing. Glock did not finish. Now I love Glocks and was shooing one in competition probably before you were born. Glock is famous for completing extremely demanding testing....but in the Homeland Security testing they failed to finish.
Rich
love my hk45 ....but magazines cost an arm and leg ...mine you great gun excellent ergonomics and typical german made gun over engineered lol
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Thanks for the insight, Rich. Like arguing about politics or religion, it all comes down to facts for me. Like many things in life, there are fan boys, just as there are haters. Why isn't HK more popular?
Because there are more haters than anything else.
Do I think that everything beyond (timeline) the HK45 and ilk is kind of crap, well yes, but not for reasons that most would think. I do agree that HK has taken a backseat of quality, unless of course it is on a legacy platform like the USP.
But here's the thing with HK...you rarely see critical failures. If you want to complain that a dry gun won't run, well, neither will that 5k 1911. Why? Because of Kraut Magic...aka. over-engineering, and tight tolerances.
That is a biggest issue I've ever heard with an HK...and the odd new gun with loose sights.
The real issue people have - or think that have, because they read it on a forum - is the price. But that's life. Yes, a Glock will still shoot for what used to be half the price...more like $200 less now. But like a car that goes A to B, an Audi will typically be finer, smoother, and give you a few added features. Hell, Glocks don't even have cup holders. I kid.
But every popular piece will give you issue. You love Glock? Cool. I'm down with that...but they have terrible factory sights (add new steel sights and you're on par with an HK), and they will suffer wear and tear on their internals. Start tuning spins and levers, and you'll have real problems.
M&Ps? Feel awesome in the hands, but if you shoot more than 500 Rounds in its life, you'll have to start worrying about shooting out barrels, and more importantly, breaking off those anaemic barrel lug hooks. Can you say "critical failure" ?
But hey, you saved a couple hundred dollars, and that's cool for the very casual shooter. I won't ever knock that, especially since both of those platforms have a wealth of aftermarket support.
Back to HK. You get what you pay for, and it's all pretty swell. Surprisingly, prices on HK are now only a little above market. Heck, G17s will run you shy of $900 plus taxes. My bingest issues are support, and the bullsh*t prices on mags.
But to sum it all up....people hate HK because they aren't what they own. We can all find a reason not to get something, but it should never be because of what you read. What should count as a point of favor when reading, is why you SHOULD. They won't die. They may limp, but they'll never die.
Lastly, people will ask "if they're so great, why dont more military and police use them?"
We'll, Johnny, two reasons. All previous HKs were considered difficult to use, and because they can't afford them. Uncle Gaston gives great pricing, and he'll replace just about anything for a couple dollars.
This is how procurement works.
Ps. Check out those few users if the USP in the mil/le circles. Hard users that run thousands of rounds a year. There's a reason why most of them still run 90's stock. Fact.
Because there are more haters than anything else.
Do I think that everything beyond (timeline) the HK45 and ilk is kind of crap, well yes, but not for reasons that most would think. I do agree that HK has taken a backseat of quality, unless of course it is on a legacy platform like the USP.
But here's the thing with HK...you rarely see critical failures. If you want to complain that a dry gun won't run, well, neither will that 5k 1911. Why? Because of Kraut Magic...aka. over-engineering, and tight tolerances.
That is a biggest issue I've ever heard with an HK...and the odd new gun with loose sights.
The real issue people have - or think that have, because they read it on a forum - is the price. But that's life. Yes, a Glock will still shoot for what used to be half the price...more like $200 less now. But like a car that goes A to B, an Audi will typically be finer, smoother, and give you a few added features. Hell, Glocks don't even have cup holders. I kid.
But every popular piece will give you issue. You love Glock? Cool. I'm down with that...but they have terrible factory sights (add new steel sights and you're on par with an HK), and they will suffer wear and tear on their internals. Start tuning spins and levers, and you'll have real problems.
M&Ps? Feel awesome in the hands, but if you shoot more than 500 Rounds in its life, you'll have to start worrying about shooting out barrels, and more importantly, breaking off those anaemic barrel lug hooks. Can you say "critical failure" ?
But hey, you saved a couple hundred dollars, and that's cool for the very casual shooter. I won't ever knock that, especially since both of those platforms have a wealth of aftermarket support.
Back to HK. You get what you pay for, and it's all pretty swell. Surprisingly, prices on HK are now only a little above market. Heck, G17s will run you shy of $900 plus taxes. My bingest issues are support, and the bullsh*t prices on mags.
But to sum it all up....people hate HK because they aren't what they own. We can all find a reason not to get something, but it should never be because of what you read. What should count as a point of favor when reading, is why you SHOULD. They won't die. They may limp, but they'll never die.
Lastly, people will ask "if they're so great, why dont more military and police use them?"
We'll, Johnny, two reasons. All previous HKs were considered difficult to use, and because they can't afford them. Uncle Gaston gives great pricing, and he'll replace just about anything for a couple dollars.
This is how procurement works.
Ps. Check out those few users if the USP in the mil/le circles. Hard users that run thousands of rounds a year. There's a reason why most of them still run 90's stock. Fact.
HK tends to do things a little differently from others, lever mag releases, LEM triggers.
Their parts tend to be over engineered and fricking expensive and hard to replace, case in point recoil spring assemblies in P2000 and newer guns. They can last 10-20K rounds depending on the source. The spring is held in place by a tiny metal disk, and you need a special tool to compress the split ends of guide rod to replace the spring and perhaps the plastic buffer on the RSA. Squeezing the ends of rod may damage them if you use other tools. In USA HK tells you to send gun in after 10K rounds and they will replace parts/springs, they seem to not like selling easily replaceable parts which is what we need in Canada. I wish their recoil springs were NOT captive, then just buying a spring is easier and cheaper than buying a whole new RSA that costs about 80$$$CAD.
They also tend to make new models of guns very frequently and sometimes the changes are not always positive. USP had excellent DA/SA trigger that allowed cocked and locked carry. P30 trigger while similar had AWFULLY LONG reset. They made the P2000, my favourite of all HK's for it's short grip for CCW and smooth lines then made the P30 which had similar length slide but a honking long full size grip.
LEM trigger is actually not bad but can't beat the triggers on Glocks, P99's and PPQ for short accurate trigger.
VP9 uses a PPQ like trigger but is a big bulky gun. If they made it P2000 size, that would be dream gun...as would a P2000 with cocked and locked trigger....The HK45CT comes close to this ideal but in .45 acp is much bulkier than 9mm gun.
That being said they are very reliable, reasonably accurate, and fairly ergonomic guns. I solved the parts problem by ordering a ton of parts from Wolverine Supplies a few years ago. I have enough parts to last about 100K rounds which I likely will never have time to shoot anyway.
I own Glocks, Walthers, Sigs, but still love My P2000 as it just plain works. I've taken many courses with it and only failure was shooter induced by riding the slide forward with hand. In comparison I have had Gen 3.5 Glock 19 fail with a batch of Flocci 115 gr FMJ, multiple failure to eject. My PPQ navy has failure to battery with low recoil ammo (runs 100% with 147 gr. ammo). Only the P99AS is as reliable as the P2000 for me, and a wee bit more accurate...it's also a bigger gun and I love my small compact guns.
Their parts tend to be over engineered and fricking expensive and hard to replace, case in point recoil spring assemblies in P2000 and newer guns. They can last 10-20K rounds depending on the source. The spring is held in place by a tiny metal disk, and you need a special tool to compress the split ends of guide rod to replace the spring and perhaps the plastic buffer on the RSA. Squeezing the ends of rod may damage them if you use other tools. In USA HK tells you to send gun in after 10K rounds and they will replace parts/springs, they seem to not like selling easily replaceable parts which is what we need in Canada. I wish their recoil springs were NOT captive, then just buying a spring is easier and cheaper than buying a whole new RSA that costs about 80$$$CAD.
They also tend to make new models of guns very frequently and sometimes the changes are not always positive. USP had excellent DA/SA trigger that allowed cocked and locked carry. P30 trigger while similar had AWFULLY LONG reset. They made the P2000, my favourite of all HK's for it's short grip for CCW and smooth lines then made the P30 which had similar length slide but a honking long full size grip.
LEM trigger is actually not bad but can't beat the triggers on Glocks, P99's and PPQ for short accurate trigger.
VP9 uses a PPQ like trigger but is a big bulky gun. If they made it P2000 size, that would be dream gun...as would a P2000 with cocked and locked trigger....The HK45CT comes close to this ideal but in .45 acp is much bulkier than 9mm gun.
That being said they are very reliable, reasonably accurate, and fairly ergonomic guns. I solved the parts problem by ordering a ton of parts from Wolverine Supplies a few years ago. I have enough parts to last about 100K rounds which I likely will never have time to shoot anyway.
I own Glocks, Walthers, Sigs, but still love My P2000 as it just plain works. I've taken many courses with it and only failure was shooter induced by riding the slide forward with hand. In comparison I have had Gen 3.5 Glock 19 fail with a batch of Flocci 115 gr FMJ, multiple failure to eject. My PPQ navy has failure to battery with low recoil ammo (runs 100% with 147 gr. ammo). Only the P99AS is as reliable as the P2000 for me, and a wee bit more accurate...it's also a bigger gun and I love my small compact guns.
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I also noticed that HK pistols seem to stay longer on the we even with a price that is reasonable for a used pistol. I wanted to sell my hk45c with 6 mags because I don't really shoot it, but after seeing the prices that they were found use, I decided to keep it. There's is no way that I'll sell a pistol with 200 rounds for 40-45 % less than what it cost new....
mebiuspower
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The USP series are huge guns. It's only until they released the HK45 that they really slimmed it down.
SFP9/VP9 is also a huge step forward to make it striker fired with the same great ergonomics of the HK45/P30.
SFP9/VP9 is also a huge step forward to make it striker fired with the same great ergonomics of the HK45/P30.
It's good to know I rustled some leaves and pulled the HK fanboys out of the woodwork.
My opinion isn't fact, but just from what I saw on a very popular range. Sure, it has influenced my buying decisions and opinions about several gun manufacturers, but one thing is almost always certain, the fanboys will always attempt to make you look like you don't know anything. I just like to know that there are certain models of pistols out there that will consistently outperform other brands. Maybe vocalizing viewpoints onto a forum, to attempt to tell people which guns are over engineered and are reliable is a feeble attempt on my part.
My opinion isn't fact, but just from what I saw on a very popular range. Sure, it has influenced my buying decisions and opinions about several gun manufacturers, but one thing is almost always certain, the fanboys will always attempt to make you look like you don't know anything. I just like to know that there are certain models of pistols out there that will consistently outperform other brands. Maybe vocalizing viewpoints onto a forum, to attempt to tell people which guns are over engineered and are reliable is a feeble attempt on my part.
bkelly4790
Regular
Yea I guess the DHS, CBP and even their tactical team BORTAC aren't reputable agencies. Both of those issue or approve of the new HK pistols for duty use. Also I guess the United States Naval Special Warfare Command isn't a reputable agency either odd seeing as how it is home to one of 2 of the most premier Special Operations forces in the world one that literally hundreds of other Sepcial Operations groups around the world are based off and seeking training from. They issue the Mk24 Mod0 which is a HK45C Tactical V3 with upgraded night sights.
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....just to inject some levity..........
