Why groups at long range are the same as close range.

PSE - a previous post you mentioned measuring the change in group size - was that difference smaller or larger than bullet diameter?? I am still kind of hung up on the rotation (like 150,000 rpm or more) around the centre of form within the barrel, that shifts at that rotation speed to around centre of gravity - if they are different - but in my limited grasp of it - both centers of rotation are within the diameter of the bullet? Easy to see different lines of trajectory - uneven release or an un-square bullet base - that varies bullet to bullet - but can not understand a mechanism that "bends" the bullet tracks back towards each other...
 
Anthony Nardelli said:
Please note this is speculation on my part. I have nothing concrete to back up this statement. If I had to come up with a flawed visual description, think of a lawn dart that is thrown at a target. It wobbles at first but starts to fly more stable as flies further along.
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As it was speculated on my part at the very beginning of this thread as well. It was an attempt to possibly explain the phenomena of tighter MOA groups at distance which to me has been personally proven at the range.

I'm also certain that the blithe, over simplistic explanation of this, that the shooter bears down on the target more at further range does not hold water either.

The verbal "dog pile" was an overreaction to my "possible explanation" of this Phenomena. It may indeed not be a actual spiral around the axis of the normal flight path but some sort or instability is happening and until we get better, more advanced scientific instruments to measure it, we won't know exactly what it is.

But thanks anyway for corroborating my speculation with your speculation.;)
 
Potashminer said:
PSE - a previous post you mentioned measuring the change in group size - was that difference smaller or larger than bullet diameter?? I am still kind of hung up on the rotation (like 150,000 rpm or more) around the centre of form within the barrel, that shifts at that rotation speed to around centre of gravity - if they are different - but in my limited grasp of it - both centers of rotation are within the diameter of the bullet? Easy to see different lines of trajectory - uneven release or an un-square bullet base - that varies bullet to bullet - but can not understand a mechanism that "bends" the bullet tracks back towards each other...
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No, not smaller or larger than bullet diameter but actual measurable difference between targets at different ranges.

Example - a group at 100 yds is 1 MOA (1 inch) but using the same bullet, shooter, rest, rifle and environment it can be better than 1 MOA (4 inches) at 400 yds. So the question is why is it shooting more precisely at 400 yds than at 100 yds? Hint: It's not the shooter.
 
Anthony Nardelli said:
Please note this is speculation on my part. I have nothing concrete to back up this statement. If I had to come up with a flawed visual description, think of a lawn dart that is thrown at a target. It wobbles at first but starts to fly more stable as flies further along. With a bullet, the wobbling is much smaller and relatively minute.
Click to expand...

Lawn darts have most of the mass in the nose, and stabilizing fins. They do that by design. Like other darts, and arrows. Bullets have neither of those.
 
PSE said:
As it was speculated on my part at the very beginning of this thread as well. It was an attempt to possibly explain the phenomena of tighter MOA groups at distance which to me has been personally proven at the range.

I'm also certain that the blithe, over simplistic explanation of this, that the shooter bears down on the target more at further range does not hold water either.

The verbal "dog pile" was an overreaction to my "possible explanation" of this Phenomena. It may indeed not be a actual spiral around the axis of the normal flight path but some sort or instability is happening and until we get better, more advanced scientific instruments to measure it, we won't know exactly what it is.

But thanks anyway for corroborating my speculation with your speculation.;)
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You have two targets from the same shots and the group on the further target is smaller?
The ballisticians have everything they need to measure it in flight instability, and one of the most well known ones will pay you $25 grand if you can prove that groups get smaller at distance. It doesn’t happen.
 
PSE said:
No, not smaller or larger than bullet diameter but actual measurable difference between targets at different ranges.

Example - a group at 100 yds is 1 MOA (1 inch) but using the same bullet, shooter, rest, rifle and environment it can be better than 1 MOA (4 inches) at 400 yds. So the question is why is it shooting more precisely at 400 yds than at 100 yds? Hint: It's not the shooter.
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It’s the shooter. No one has or will prove otherwise. It’s an easy enough test to set up and prove, but it won’t happen, because it can’t.
 
Tokay444 said:
You have two targets from the same shots and the group on the further target is smaller?
The ballisticians have everything they need to measure it in flight instability, and one of the most well known ones will pay you $25 grand if you can prove that groups get smaller at distance. It doesn’t happen.
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As usual you only seem to hear what you want to hear. In terms of MOA the MOA group is smaller not the entire measurement of the group.

I'll spell it out for you. You can can shoot a 1 MOA group at 100 yds (1 inch measured) and at 400 yds you can shoot another less than MOA group. It can measure 3.5 inches which makes it less than MOA at 400 yds. Is 3.5 inches greater than 1 inch - certainly, but in terms of MOA you are shooting more precise at 400 yds than at 100 yards.

An instability that settles down as the distance increases might explain this phenomenon but until we have the capabilities to observe and measure it we don't know for certain. It's a theory, a possible explanation nothing more.

I can't make it anymore clear than that.
 
Tokay444 said:
Lawn darts have most of the mass in the nose, and stabilizing fins. They do that by design. Like other darts, and arrows. Bullets have neither of those.
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I can appreciate that. However, I did indicate it was a flawed visual example. It wasn't intended to indicate how a bullet would stabilize. I don't even know if the phenomena of groups improving at distance is even true.
 
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PSE said:
As usual you only seem to hear what you want to hear. In terms of MOA the MOA group is smaller not the entire measurement of the group.

I'll spell it out for you. You can can shoot a 1 MOA group at 100 yds (1 inch measured) and at 400 yds you can shoot another less than MOA group. It can measure 3.5 inches which makes it less than MOA at 400 yds. Is 3.5 inches greater than 1 inch - certainly, but in terms of MOA you are shooting more precise at 400 yds than at 100 yards.

An instability that settles down as the distance increases might explain this phenomenon but until we have the capabilities to observe and measure it we don't know for certain. It's a theory, a possible explanation nothing more.

I can't make it anymore clear than that.
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I read it loud and clear. Groups don’t shrink in MOA or overall size at distance. They don’t. Someone would have $25k from one of the most well known ballisticians already if they did.
I’ll spell it out for you. Y O U C A N ‘ T. Not from the same shots. Do shooters routinely shoot smaller moa groups at distance than they have at 100? Yes, SHOOTERS do. It’s the SHOOTER. None have ever had a groups pass through a 100 yard target and make a smaller moa group on their 400 yard target. Groups don’t shrink at distance because bullets don’t deviate from their trajectory barring wind deflection.
 
https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

Maybe this simple visualization will help you get your heads around it.

FOR101.gif
 
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Maple57 said:
Read up homies

https://webpath.med.utah.edu/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

Maybe this will help you get your heads around it.

FOR101.gif
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you can't just post things you do not understand, and claim everyone else is un-informed.

the bullet orientation can be independent of the flight path, but the trajectory is not.


you will be in a world of hurt when you start trying to wrap your head around shockwave propagation through trans-sonic travel.

Lets just say that very few people actually understand the extreme complexity of internal and external ballistics, but none of them claim a bullet corkscrews around its trajectory.
 
PSE said:
As usual you only seem to hear what you want to hear. In terms of MOA the MOA group is smaller not the entire measurement of the group.

I'll spell it out for you. You can can shoot a 1 MOA group at 100 yds (1 inch measured) and at 400 yds you can shoot another less than MOA group. It can measure 3.5 inches which makes it less than MOA at 400 yds. Is 3.5 inches greater than 1 inch - certainly, but in terms of MOA you are shooting more precise at 400 yds than at 100 yards.

An instability that settles down as the distance increases might explain this phenomenon but until we have the capabilities to observe and measure it we don't know for certain. It's a theory, a possible explanation nothing more.

I can't make it anymore clear than that.
Click to expand...

Rifles and projectiles don't shoot better at distance then they do at a closer range.
 
Tokay444 said:
None have ever had a groups pass through a 100 yard target and make a smaller moa group on their 400 yard target.
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Sounds like a thoroughly bogus test. Of course you are introducing a variable AFTER the bullet passes through the first target at 100 yards. You are going to introduce instability in the bullet that is striking the 100 yd paper at supersonic velocity which will affect precision in a negative way further down range - Talk about gaming a test.

Not exactly the scientific approach. Surprised this gets any credibility.

In order to test this properly no outside influences (which definitely eliminates the bullet striking anything between the muzzle and the final target) must happen.
 
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