Donny Fenn1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Kootenays
you do know that "Springfield Armory" is not THE Springfield that developed the 1903 Mauser copy/M1 Garand/M14, right?
Why no love for the Springfield Socom 16?
- Thread starter surfer365
- Start date
you do know that "Springfield Armory" is not THE Springfield that developed the 1903 Mauser copy/M1 Garand/M14, right?
I post this as personal opinion based on my own personal experiences and from researching stateside on known issues commonly experienced with these rifles.
I do not want this to turn into a trash SAI thread.
I'm not a fan of the cast receiver , made via tree casting at Alpha Casting, Quebec
Springfield has had many quality control issues that are inexcuseable from a company making the "american rifle"
For me, I buy the norc receivers and build on them and have had nothing short of exceptional results.
I don't feel that springfield rack grade rifles are worth what SAI prices them at but that's just my opinion.
There is a tonne of user comments on the US forums if you take time to research.
Regardless, springfield rifles are nice.... But if I were to spend good money on a M14 type rifle that was US made, I would buy an LRB M25 hands down.
Well for starters he wasn't just dissing the rifle... Given that I own a SOCOM, it's difficult to defend against the fact that Lazerus called me a "fashion concerned lemming wannabe" and accused me of trying to "impress the ignorant"... after which he mildly (at best) insulted my intelligence by suggesting that there was something about this subject which I don't understand ("WHICH PART OF THE MATH DON'T YOU GET YET???").
Add all of that to the fact that he then went on to (again) hold himself above the rest of us just because he's gotten his hands dirty on "80 or so US GI M14/M1A/305/M14S shorty conversions, and I've owned FIVE Sproingfields"... like that makes him something special... and I think he got off pretty f**king easy...
In fact... hey, Laz... bite me...!
I would also like to post a clarification on an issue that confuses some.
The original designs for the M1garand led to the developement of the M14.
These M14 rifles were designed by the US government owned Springfield Amoury , who employed Mr. Garand, and adopted by the US military May 1957 after over a decade of design improvements.
M1A rifles were not designed by Springfield Armoury, they were developed in 1973 by Springfield Armoury Inc of Devine Texas, a private company and NO affilliation with the US Government owned and operated Springfield Armoury.
So both the chinese m14s/m305 and the M1A are clones of the real deal.
The original designs for the M1garand led to the developement of the M14.
These M14 rifles were designed by the US government owned Springfield Amoury , who employed Mr. Garand, and adopted by the US military May 1957 after over a decade of design improvements.
M1A rifles were not designed by Springfield Armoury, they were developed in 1973 by Springfield Armoury Inc of Devine Texas, a private company and NO affilliation with the US Government owned and operated Springfield Armoury.
So both the chinese m14s/m305 and the M1A are clones of the real deal.
That is right, they are two unrelated entities with similar names. The commercial Springfield went with the name to pull guys in who were unaware of the difference.
So it's not like comparing a knockoff and the original...it's comparing two different knockoffs of the original.
SAI were the first people to make a fake M14, and because they used a name similar to one of the real original builders, some people have been sucked in to their marketing. But they are also a clone.
The SOCOMs have never had a great reputation but I would guess the reason they are overlooked here has more to do with price/restricted status than performance. Very few people actually push the performance envelope of a rifle, in my experience.
FWIW I believe SAI considers the SOCOMs to be operating within spec if they'll do 6-8 MOA. Many shoot better, of course...but I have seen a couple shoot pretty ruger-14-esque groups.
So it's not like comparing a knockoff and the original...it's comparing two different knockoffs of the original.
SAI were the first people to make a fake M14, and because they used a name similar to one of the real original builders, some people have been sucked in to their marketing. But they are also a clone.
The SOCOMs have never had a great reputation but I would guess the reason they are overlooked here has more to do with price/restricted status than performance. Very few people actually push the performance envelope of a rifle, in my experience.
FWIW I believe SAI considers the SOCOMs to be operating within spec if they'll do 6-8 MOA. Many shoot better, of course...but I have seen a couple shoot pretty ruger-14-esque groups.
Actually, many owners of these rifles here in Canada have enjoyed reliable shooting from them.
Morpheus is certainly amongst these. Myself as well. Add in a fair number of reputable shooters that tried and appreciated it for what it is. Its a short, fun yet expensive rifle for intended for ranges only. Fortunately for me, that happens to be where I spend over 90% of my time shooting anyway. For field, I have non-restricted for that too.
I don't know about about this 'manly' rifles nonsense. Frankly, if my life once again depended on the reliability of my working gun I'd have few concerns about staking it on the SOCOM I owned. In fact, I'd have far greater concern at that point about entertaining someone mumbling about how manly their rifle is.
I said it in my first post. I'll say it again. Sometimes you will be exposed to some quasi-religious statements about M1A brands. Other posts go a little bit weirder than that. But then you have a great, rich community of people like Thomas (M14doctor) and Hungry that tend to spin back to reality and everything is good again. So I wouldn't lose much sleep over what someone else thinks about you or your brand of rifle. YMMV.
This isn't a 'crucify Lazerus' post BTW, and I hope the thread in general doesn't degrade into that kind of stupidity in general. Everyone has their off days and he has added a lot to the M1A experience here in Canada. But I think this one went out to left field. Their is little value in stifling anyone's opinion on a public opinion forum.
I certainly here you about pushing the rifles Misanthropist. Especially with the price of .308. In fact, I double dog dare someone to wear out their Springfield cast receiver. If you can afford that feat, you're probably not whinging about the cost of a rifle. Even milsurp has become ungodly. My money says that other parts will go long before the receiver does.
For a SOCOM-16, that means your tritium front post sight. In two of these I have owned, the Tritium popped in the first 100 rounds. Maybe Springfield replaces these. Maybe not. I don't really give a f**k for something that trivial as I use the left top edge of the sight for alignment with irons anyway. Same systemic problem on both rifles. But it would take a grand fool to state that it is a problem with all SOCOMs. And only the worst kind of fan boy would believe such a tale.
Generally, when people get bent out of shape on what products I want to spend my money on and start questioning my reasonable judgment on material value after having used them on a regular basis, I (frankly) no longer even entertain ideas about where they might be coming from. It pretty much goes straight to the discard pile. After all, consider this. A good salesman sells the value of his product. Not how s**tty the other guy's product is. If that's all he can talk about, his product's reputation suffers for it. Note how differently M14doctor worded his response. Makes you want to hear more about what Thomas can do to help you build a better rifle, really.
Are they worth it? That's a personal question. Not a global one. I loved mine. I also enjoyed my ridiculously priced H&K UMP and my outrageously priced AI AWSM, etc, etc ad nauseum.
One thing is guaranteed though. If you don't like it you can sell it and find something else on the EE, because rifles move through there every single day.
I don't doubt that at all. I believe they are decent machines, but I also believe their overall reputation has never been all that fantastic. I think the Scout and full-size SAIs have always had better reputations.
But I think that's a small enough piece of the puzzle that I would guess if they were non-restricted and a little cheaper - say in the $1500-2000 range - we'd see quite a few of them out there.
The OP asked "WHY NO LOVE FOR THE SOCOM" ...
and I responded with my honest opinion.
After all,
he DID ask!
[;|{()
Kenjuudo posted:
"In fact... hey, Laz... bite me...! "
LAZ replies with a witty rejoinder,
"Kenjuudo ... get a hair cut!",
and we are off to another fact filled,
unbiased,
logical debate on
American "Quality" and "Fashionable Tacticoolness",
VS
common sense and buying for value and performance rather than image.
If you and the other SOCOM lovers out there in LA LA LAND,
who wax so eloquent in its praise,
can't figure out that:
1.] spending BIG $$$ for a RESTRICTED rifle that is about as accurate as a Mini 30,
2.] that feebly ejects a BADLY CRIPPLED 7.62 NATO bullet out of the ultra short/ultra fashionable 16" RESTRICTED barrel ...
a bullet that now closely resembles the ballistics of a 7.62 X 39 bullet fired out of an UNrestricted Ruger mini 30,
3.] from a rifle [ UNlike a Mini 30] that is horrendously front end heavy and slow on multiple targets
4.] with flame and concussion and recoil way greater than a Mini 30,
5.] with ammo that costs about 4 times as much as a mini 30,
6.] from a rifle that is simply not as reliable as a ....
wait for it ...
a Mini 30,
why then,
if that doesn't make you fashion conscious tacticool wannabes ...
what would?
Shoulda bought a mini 30!
When you fashion conscious Tacticool addicts praise the virtues of the MUTANT DWARF SOCOM as a so called practical/tactical firearm,
when the MDS doesn't even compare well against a Mini 30,
why then some adult should step into the conversation and call "BS!"
Does that clarify the math for you?
Kenjuudo also said,
" ... he then went on to (again) hold himself above the rest of us just because he's gotten his hands dirty on "80 or so US GI M14/M1A/305/M14S shorty conversions, and I've owned FIVE Sproingfields"... like that makes him something special... and I think he got off pretty f**king easy..."
NO Kenjuudo,
you got off pretty F@#$ easy ... you never will be taking you SOCOM into a real world situation where it might let you down, so you can afford to give out all that unearned praise regarding its tactical effectiveness.
Awwww ... did the mean ol man call your pwecious baby ...
FUGLY!
Well man up and face up to the facts ...
maybe your pweciuos widdle Mutant Dwarf SOCOM IS FUGLY!!
No matter how much you OVER paid for it!
And maybe you should buy your next "prctical/tactical" rifle based on facts, not on "Tacticool image".
Opinions on the internet are like A$$$holes ... everyone has one.
Opinion quality varies ... some opinions are worth more than others.
Opinion quality is directly related to credibility.
Credibility is directly related to REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE.
The more RWE, the more credible the opinion.
My RWE with the M14 family[ as opposed to hours of World of Warcraft game time ] goes back about 30 years, and I've personally owned and shortified about 80 of these. My experience includes working on five of my own Springfield M1A rifles [ and believe me, these precious examples of America's best efforts DID need some gun smiting ], and as a professional gunsmiter for paying customer on countless genuine US GI M14 rifles, and Chinese clones, and few other "quality control challenged" M1As. This hands on real world experience is primarily on what I base my opinions about M14 rifle and its varients.
And just to keep in practice, and stay young, I sometimes also mindlessly parrot or regurgitate what I read on other chat groups, or heard from the older boys in the gun shop ...
just like some other posters here.
And as always,
I close any controversial remarks with that good ol' disclaimer ...
YPMMV.
If you don't like my opinions, why then go out and get some personal mileage of your own, and state your VALID and CREDIBLE reasons and the EXPERIENCE backing up your opinions.
This is known as the rational method of argument,
Otherwise you are just blowin smoke ...
TTFN
gotta go build another Tacticool ultra short AR 15 ...
jus cause they are so darn ... cute!!!
Practicality be darned!
[;{)
LAZ 1
and I responded with my honest opinion.
After all,
he DID ask!
[;|{()
Kenjuudo posted:
"In fact... hey, Laz... bite me...! "
LAZ replies with a witty rejoinder,
"Kenjuudo ... get a hair cut!",
and we are off to another fact filled,
unbiased,
logical debate on
American "Quality" and "Fashionable Tacticoolness",
VS
common sense and buying for value and performance rather than image.
If you and the other SOCOM lovers out there in LA LA LAND,
who wax so eloquent in its praise,
can't figure out that:
1.] spending BIG $$$ for a RESTRICTED rifle that is about as accurate as a Mini 30,
2.] that feebly ejects a BADLY CRIPPLED 7.62 NATO bullet out of the ultra short/ultra fashionable 16" RESTRICTED barrel ...
a bullet that now closely resembles the ballistics of a 7.62 X 39 bullet fired out of an UNrestricted Ruger mini 30,
3.] from a rifle [ UNlike a Mini 30] that is horrendously front end heavy and slow on multiple targets
4.] with flame and concussion and recoil way greater than a Mini 30,
5.] with ammo that costs about 4 times as much as a mini 30,
6.] from a rifle that is simply not as reliable as a ....
wait for it ...
a Mini 30,
why then,
if that doesn't make you fashion conscious tacticool wannabes ...
what would?
Shoulda bought a mini 30!
When you fashion conscious Tacticool addicts praise the virtues of the MUTANT DWARF SOCOM as a so called practical/tactical firearm,
when the MDS doesn't even compare well against a Mini 30,
why then some adult should step into the conversation and call "BS!"
Does that clarify the math for you?
Kenjuudo also said,
" ... he then went on to (again) hold himself above the rest of us just because he's gotten his hands dirty on "80 or so US GI M14/M1A/305/M14S shorty conversions, and I've owned FIVE Sproingfields"... like that makes him something special... and I think he got off pretty f**king easy..."
NO Kenjuudo,
you got off pretty F@#$ easy ... you never will be taking you SOCOM into a real world situation where it might let you down, so you can afford to give out all that unearned praise regarding its tactical effectiveness.
Awwww ... did the mean ol man call your pwecious baby ...
FUGLY!
Well man up and face up to the facts ...
maybe your pweciuos widdle Mutant Dwarf SOCOM IS FUGLY!!
No matter how much you OVER paid for it!
And maybe you should buy your next "prctical/tactical" rifle based on facts, not on "Tacticool image".
Opinions on the internet are like A$$$holes ... everyone has one.
Opinion quality varies ... some opinions are worth more than others.
Opinion quality is directly related to credibility.
Credibility is directly related to REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE.
The more RWE, the more credible the opinion.
My RWE with the M14 family[ as opposed to hours of World of Warcraft game time ] goes back about 30 years, and I've personally owned and shortified about 80 of these. My experience includes working on five of my own Springfield M1A rifles [ and believe me, these precious examples of America's best efforts DID need some gun smiting ], and as a professional gunsmiter for paying customer on countless genuine US GI M14 rifles, and Chinese clones, and few other "quality control challenged" M1As. This hands on real world experience is primarily on what I base my opinions about M14 rifle and its varients.
And just to keep in practice, and stay young, I sometimes also mindlessly parrot or regurgitate what I read on other chat groups, or heard from the older boys in the gun shop ...
just like some other posters here.
And as always,
I close any controversial remarks with that good ol' disclaimer ...
YPMMV.
If you don't like my opinions, why then go out and get some personal mileage of your own, and state your VALID and CREDIBLE reasons and the EXPERIENCE backing up your opinions.
This is known as the rational method of argument,
Otherwise you are just blowin smoke ...
TTFN
gotta go build another Tacticool ultra short AR 15 ...
jus cause they are so darn ... cute!!!
Practicality be darned!
[;{)
LAZ 1
I'm sure you're right about the pricing.
One note that is often (and incorrectly) overlooked is the effectiveness of the muzzle break on the SOCOM. Fantastic. But it IS noisy.
OT. Anyone know what happened with the LRB shorty that Brobee brought in?
Ranting about the pure manliness of rifle A vs rifle B on the Internet and calling anyone who disagrees with you a 'world of warcrafter' as opposed to employing rifle A AND rifle B in some reputable form of combat activity.
That's about as wannabe as anyone should ever want to not be.
Kazakhstan : our potassium is superior. All other potassium is inferior.
Don't even get me started on LRBs ...
ask Thomas about the LRB build, direct from LRB, that he had to tweak to get working. And ask LRB [ or SA ] how well they will honor their warranty once their gun goes north of the border?
It is a good thing you Canuck M14 addicts have Thomas around to fix things properly for you when your Sproingfields and LRBs develop "issues" ....
cause you don't [ REALLY don't] wanna get involved with shipping your 'merican guns back for warranty work.
"American quality" ...
now THAT is an OXYmoron.
When grade 8 Chinese shop students [ and me and Thomas ] can build a better M14 than Corporate America's best efforts,
well give your head a shake ...
and plan on teaching your kids Mandarin, cause they are going to need it.
[;{)
LAZ
ask Thomas about the LRB build, direct from LRB, that he had to tweak to get working. And ask LRB [ or SA ] how well they will honor their warranty once their gun goes north of the border?
It is a good thing you Canuck M14 addicts have Thomas around to fix things properly for you when your Sproingfields and LRBs develop "issues" ....
cause you don't [ REALLY don't] wanna get involved with shipping your 'merican guns back for warranty work.
"American quality" ...
now THAT is an OXYmoron.
When grade 8 Chinese shop students [ and me and Thomas ] can build a better M14 than Corporate America's best efforts,
well give your head a shake ...
and plan on teaching your kids Mandarin, cause they are going to need it.
[;{)
LAZ
Getting you started is obviously not the problem... getting you to STFU on the other hand, that appears to be more challenging.
My opinions of the SOCOM are in fact based on my own experiences with the rifle... regardless of how much stock you (of whose opinion at this point, I couldn't care less) put in it...
I'm sorry that you are obviously such an unhappy person, spending your days trying to build yourself up in the company of a nameless, faceless audience... you must have had a difficult life. And I'm also sorry that you spent so much of your energy writing that self-aggrandizing diatribe on the previous page... the effort was wasted as it had no impact, and only serves to show us more about you than perhaps we knew before. Sad really...
And oh, by the way... bite me...!
After seeing this picture I was hell bent on having one until I found out 2 things. The price, and the fact that it was restricted.
I just slapped my red dot up front on my SKS and figure it is a good enough clone for me right now. I am keeping my eyes peeled on the EE for a m14 that has had the barrel shortened but is still non restricted. I will probably clone it up just like I did the SKS. Way cheaper and almost as much fun, minus the fit and finish end of things.
I just slapped my red dot up front on my SKS and figure it is a good enough clone for me right now. I am keeping my eyes peeled on the EE for a m14 that has had the barrel shortened but is still non restricted. I will probably clone it up just like I did the SKS. Way cheaper and almost as much fun, minus the fit and finish end of things.
I was very recently doing some guns & parts swapping with the CGNnner I initially sold it to several years ago.....he still has it and is keeping it as what he called his "most prized" piece in his collection.
And on the SOCOM/Springfield issue, my hobby/addiction relating to M1A (also have a similar affliction with Swiss Arms rifles) has seen a large number of just about every M1A configurtion you can imagine come through my collection. I've personally owned at least 8 different springfields, and have kept two of them because they shoot very well. One of them is an older springfield, and the other was a restricted SOCOM that I re-barreled with an 18.5 inch LRB barrel and had re-classified as non-restricted (almost experienced a gong show with the CFC over that one).
Another perspective is that I sold my LRB, yet still keep and shoot two springfields. I also have about a half dozen M305s that I also keep and shoot and for me the springfields represent something "nicer" than my chinese frankenguns. What does "nicer" mean? Hard to know but I would infer from some of Sprint's writing above that he too experiences the same type of esthetic value judgements.
Do I love my Chinese guns? You becha. But I still always seem to have a couple springfields to play with and they get their fair share of love. My M1As are by no means safe queens either....I shoot alot and the M1As I have are, in my experience, every bit as reliable as my chinese guns.
One of the things I like (or sometimes hate, but then I just sell the offending rifle) about the M1A type rifle is that each one seems to have their own charracter. What makes one shoot better than another? Lots of people have lots of different ideas/experience, but mine would indicate there is as much art/chance involved as science, so I approach it with a somewhat more statistical approach by rotating out the bad ones and accumulating the good ones.
So anyway, in a thread that seems to be heading downhill fast (and on a topic that seems to come up and get done to death about once every 4 to 6 months), there's my 0.02$ worth.
Brobee
I have never owned a SOCOM so take it for what its worth but my main reason for not wanting one is the one thing that Laz didn't really hit on a lot in his arguments.
The barrel length is too short to effectively launch the round at a proper muzzle velocity. Really whats the point of shooting 7.62x51 if all you are gonna get is the performance of a 7.62x39 bullet? Basically you have a heavy sks with the LCF and recoil of an M14. Sure it is a little faster then an out of the box M14 but is it faster then a mini30, VZ58 or an SKS? I don't know of any units actually fielding SOCOMs, probably because there are better platforms that will outperform the SOCOM with less weight, better ergonomics, and less overall length.
In my mind the M14 is a thing of beauty in its intended role ==> an infantry battle rifle. It is a moderately accurate platform designed to put a modified 30.06 bullet into a man sized target at ranges <500m. You can massage some aspects like barrel length and optics to make it a bit handier but when you go too far you really just have a collection piece and not a prudent rifle investment. Personally my favorite setup and the one I use for hunting is a tuned norc with a 18.5" barrel, a brake and an IOR 1-4x20 scope, if I hunted in more open areas I would use a bolt gun in the same caliber with a 2-7 power scope.
If all you want is that "collection piece" then buy the SOCOM, nobody can begrudge that. If you want fun to shoot M14 then get the Doc to build you a non res shorty.
BTW my personal M14 (the only one I actually shoot) is a shorty I got from LAZ, it has shot sub MOA since I got it with reloads. It cost me about 1/3rd the price of a SOCOM and never let me down. LAZ knows his poop.
The barrel length is too short to effectively launch the round at a proper muzzle velocity. Really whats the point of shooting 7.62x51 if all you are gonna get is the performance of a 7.62x39 bullet? Basically you have a heavy sks with the LCF and recoil of an M14. Sure it is a little faster then an out of the box M14 but is it faster then a mini30, VZ58 or an SKS? I don't know of any units actually fielding SOCOMs, probably because there are better platforms that will outperform the SOCOM with less weight, better ergonomics, and less overall length.
In my mind the M14 is a thing of beauty in its intended role ==> an infantry battle rifle. It is a moderately accurate platform designed to put a modified 30.06 bullet into a man sized target at ranges <500m. You can massage some aspects like barrel length and optics to make it a bit handier but when you go too far you really just have a collection piece and not a prudent rifle investment. Personally my favorite setup and the one I use for hunting is a tuned norc with a 18.5" barrel, a brake and an IOR 1-4x20 scope, if I hunted in more open areas I would use a bolt gun in the same caliber with a 2-7 power scope.
If all you want is that "collection piece" then buy the SOCOM, nobody can begrudge that. If you want fun to shoot M14 then get the Doc to build you a non res shorty.
BTW my personal M14 (the only one I actually shoot) is a shorty I got from LAZ, it has shot sub MOA since I got it with reloads. It cost me about 1/3rd the price of a SOCOM and never let me down. LAZ knows his poop.
Thank you for the reply, "M14Doctor." I will gather more information about a reliable M14/M1A platform, and definitely keep you in mind when it comes time to doing some function mods.
And oh, by the way... bite me...!
I certainly wouldnt want to have anythign to do with you, let alone bite.
