dangertree
Business Rep
- Location
- NL/ON/FL/PL
EVIDENCE [Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
Thursday, April 27, 1995
[English]
The Chair: I'd like to call the meeting to order. We are continuing with our consideration of Bill C-68, An Act respecting firearms and other weapons.
This afternoon we are pleased to have with us the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, represented by Jon Kirton, the vice-president, and Lieutenant-Colonel (Ret'd) T. J. Kaulbach, the executive director.
Gentlemen, we have a copy of your brief, which was sent to us, and members have been able to review it. We would like you to limit your opening remarks to about 15 minutes. If you can read the brief in that time, that's fine. If you don't feel you can do that, you can highlight the main points and we'll print the brief.
Mr. Jon Kirton (Vice-President, Dominion of Canada Rifle Association): There will be time to read it.
The Chair: I think so. It doesn't look that long. If you would give us your opening remarks, then we'll have the usual rounds of questioning.
Mr. Kirton: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, we represent the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which was founded in 1868 and incorporated by an act of Parliament, 63-64 Victoria, chapter 99, assented to on July 7, 1890, to promote and encourage the training of marksmanship throughout Canada. The passage of this act was prompted by the imminent departure of the British garrisons, which had all left by 1871, and by the then recent experience of the Fenian raids, which had occurred in 1866, against Canadian territory.
This association, which is primarily a civilian organization, although many of our members are serving members of the Canadian forces and retired service personnel, has undertaken this mandate for the last 127 years with dedication and an outstanding safety record.
To this day, this association, in conjunction with its affiliated provincial and territorial rifle associations, provides assistance to the Department of National Defence by organizing and running, in conjunction with the Canadian forces, small arms competition, CFSAC, the national service arms competition, NSAC, and service rifle matches organized by the provincial rifle associations across the country. We are also responsible for organizing and assisting the various Canadian teams, both civilian and military, that go every year to Bisley in the United Kingdom.
In addition, one of our major activities is organizing and running a cadet winter postal program across the country, culminating in cadet provincial championships in each province and an annual national cadet championship in Ottawa.
Several of our members were largely responsible for the organization of the Commonwealth Games shooting competitions in Victoria, British Columbia, last year, an event that resulted in Canada winning 22 shooting medals, more than Canada won in all sports combined. Shooting sports won 22 out of a total of 43 won.
All of these activities will be severely restricted and curtailed by the new bill.
We have an enormous concern that the government's real intent with Bill C-68 and the proposed national owner and firearms registration system is to so discourage the use of firearms in this country that they will rapidly disappear, in the mistaken belief that this will reduce the criminal use of firearms.
Please give careful consideration to the fact that the world is a dangerous place and that in Canada we enjoy an enormous land mass filled with water, resources, and food production capabilities that are the envy of the rest of the world. While we have probably the lowest population density of any nation, to protect this nation we have armed forces whose total numbers, according to a recent press report, are fewer than that of the New York City police department.
Should the day ever come again when civilians are needed to help defend this country, Canada may learn to bitterly regret Bill C-68, if it becomes law, for the effect it will have had on legitimate firearms' use and ownership.
This association has provided extensive assistance in marksmanship training to the Canadian forces in two world wars and in several lesser ones. It takes years to learn to shoot well. Recruits do not become skilled marksmen simply by putting on a uniform. Canadian troops have often survived and made major contributions in wartime because they grew up with a heritage of marksmanship training encouraged by groups such as ours and could outshoot their enemies.
Marksmanship is as important today, especially in the peacekeeping role, as it ever was. There is an old saying: to be assured of peace, prepare for war.
I can remember a time in 1940, not so very long ago, when the British government, faced with the prospect of a Nazi invasion, advertised widely across North America pleading for U.S. and Canadian gun owners to send their firearms to Britain to replace the pitchforks and staves, which were the only weapons that many of the troops and Home Guard members possessed. Pray to God that such a situation never occurs in Canada, particularly if the government forces adoption of Bill C-68.
.1545
Perhaps you will say to us that we exaggerate the situation and that Bill C-68 will not take firearms away from Canadian citizens. I ask the members of this committee: how many of you have actually examined the current firearms acquisition certificate application? I have one here. It's quite a document, all 10 foolscap pages of it, to fill out, just for an application. This is bureaucracy gone mad, and Bill C-68 only makes matters worse.
The government is attempting to appease a small segment of the public at the expense of all legitimate, law-abiding firearms owners. We have no objection to any action against criminals or the criminal misuse of firearms, but no criminal is ever going to be restricted by most of this bill.
Having said all of the foregoing, there are two areas that are of extreme concern to this association since they have already had very fundamental effects on our operations.
The first and major problem is the outright prohibition of the AR-15 rifle and its variants. This rifle is the commercial semi-automatic equivalent of the Canadian forces C-7 selective semi/full automatic rifle and is accepted in service rifle matches across Canada to permit civilians to engage in service rifle matches and to compete against the C-7 rifle. Marksmanship in the Canadian forces is stimulated by this civilian competition. This rifle was unrestricted originally, until the former bill, C-17, introduced under the former Conservative government, when it became restricted and has now been classified by regulation as prohibited, which legally prevents our members from using it.
We ask that the Colt AR-15 rifle and its variants be given some form of exemption from prohibition for DCRA members so that it can continue to be used in legitimate competitive training and matches at all levels.
Our second concern is with regard to the minimum age of ownership, which was changed by the former bill from 16 to 18 years of age. The only exemption from this requirement at the moment is for individuals under the age of 18 who require a firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain themselves or their families.
We would like to see an exemption made for members of the cadet corps. This would permit especially those cadets who have shown great promise at the summer cadet camps and who may have been selected for the Canadian Bisley team for the following summer to continue their practice during the fall and spring, which is essential for their success in international competitions. Currently, because of the age law, this is impossible. I should point out that at the age of 18 cadets leave the cadet program. It is the 16- and 17-year-olds who most need this exemption.
We ask the committee to pay heed to our brief, to review Bill C-68 carefully and to eliminate from it the parts that may do Canada more harm than good. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Kirton.
....................
Mr. Wappel: I'd like to understand the problem with the AR-15 in competition. Am I correct in assuming your concern is because this rifle is a semi-automatic and therefore it will be banned or prohibited or whatever the word may be? Is this the idea?
Mr. Kirton: It is specifically on the list of firearms that have become prohibited firearms by Order in Council.
Mr. Wappel: Okay. Now, we know the minister has said if there are competitions, let's hear about them, maybe we can come to some accommodation. Could you please tell the committee about the competitions that currently exist in Canada that use this rifle, the Colt AR-15, and its variants? How many people partake in them? How long have they been going on? Are they involved in working up toward Olympic sports? Can you tell the committee anything about these competitions with this specific type of rifle and its variants?
LCol Kaulbach: For the last, I suppose, 50 years or so the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association and its provincial rifle associations have been conducting competitions in connection with the regular force and the militia right across the country. At one point the members of the DCRA had the FNC-l and competed side by side with the militia and the regular force.
When the regular force went to what is now called the C-7, the civilian equivalent to that, the AR-15, was the one our people bought, because we run competitions for the military and on behalf of the military in every province in this country. When the Canadian forces national championships take place here at Connaught in July, there are many visiting teams from Great Britain and so on that come to shoot with our regular force and the militia, and our civilian members compete alongside those military teams.
Mr. Wappel: How many Candians are we talking about?
LCol Kaulbach: Canadians across the country, about 5,000.
Mr. Wappel: These are the civilians.
LCol Kaulbach: These are civilians, but these are in each of the provinces.
Here at Connaught we normally get about 200 civilians who compete side by side during the Canadian forces small arms competition.
Mr. Wappel: So the military would use the C-7, which is the military rifle and the civilian people, numbering some 5,000, would use the equivalent of this, which is the AR-15 and its variants.
LCol Kaulbach: Yes.
.1640
Mr. Wappel: These competitions have been going on for how long?
LCol Kaulbach: Ever since the formation of the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association.
Mr. Wappel: Way back in 1868.
LCol Kaulback: We didn't have automatic weapons at that time.
Mr. Wappel: No, I can appreciate that. These competitions continue and they are international competitions.
LCol Kaulbach: That's right.
Mr. Wappel: So one would presume what you're looking for at a minimum, the bottom line, would be some exemption to permit their use in competition?
LCol Kaulbach: Exactly.
Mr. Wappel: All right. Thank you.
To read the rest of the Committee transcripts check
http://www.parl.gc.ca/35/Archives/committees351/jula/english_committee.html
Knowing how we got here should be required reading for us all.
If it wasn't for the work of the DCRA we would not be able to buy or shoot an AR15 in Canada today. Will the DCRA be around next time to fight on your behalf?
I'd like to suggest a New Years resolution for all CGNers with an AR15 rifle in their gun-safe...
Join your Provincial Rifle Association and GET OUT AND SHOOT IT in 2009! 
Most PRA sites are linked below, and allow for downloading membership kits. Show your support, join up, send a cheque! It's some of the best shooting you can do in Canada.
http://www.dcra.ca/canadian_and_internatinal_organizations.htm
Thursday, April 27, 1995
[English]
The Chair: I'd like to call the meeting to order. We are continuing with our consideration of Bill C-68, An Act respecting firearms and other weapons.
This afternoon we are pleased to have with us the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, represented by Jon Kirton, the vice-president, and Lieutenant-Colonel (Ret'd) T. J. Kaulbach, the executive director.
Gentlemen, we have a copy of your brief, which was sent to us, and members have been able to review it. We would like you to limit your opening remarks to about 15 minutes. If you can read the brief in that time, that's fine. If you don't feel you can do that, you can highlight the main points and we'll print the brief.
Mr. Jon Kirton (Vice-President, Dominion of Canada Rifle Association): There will be time to read it.
The Chair: I think so. It doesn't look that long. If you would give us your opening remarks, then we'll have the usual rounds of questioning.
Mr. Kirton: Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, we represent the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association, which was founded in 1868 and incorporated by an act of Parliament, 63-64 Victoria, chapter 99, assented to on July 7, 1890, to promote and encourage the training of marksmanship throughout Canada. The passage of this act was prompted by the imminent departure of the British garrisons, which had all left by 1871, and by the then recent experience of the Fenian raids, which had occurred in 1866, against Canadian territory.
This association, which is primarily a civilian organization, although many of our members are serving members of the Canadian forces and retired service personnel, has undertaken this mandate for the last 127 years with dedication and an outstanding safety record.
To this day, this association, in conjunction with its affiliated provincial and territorial rifle associations, provides assistance to the Department of National Defence by organizing and running, in conjunction with the Canadian forces, small arms competition, CFSAC, the national service arms competition, NSAC, and service rifle matches organized by the provincial rifle associations across the country. We are also responsible for organizing and assisting the various Canadian teams, both civilian and military, that go every year to Bisley in the United Kingdom.
In addition, one of our major activities is organizing and running a cadet winter postal program across the country, culminating in cadet provincial championships in each province and an annual national cadet championship in Ottawa.
Several of our members were largely responsible for the organization of the Commonwealth Games shooting competitions in Victoria, British Columbia, last year, an event that resulted in Canada winning 22 shooting medals, more than Canada won in all sports combined. Shooting sports won 22 out of a total of 43 won.
All of these activities will be severely restricted and curtailed by the new bill.
We have an enormous concern that the government's real intent with Bill C-68 and the proposed national owner and firearms registration system is to so discourage the use of firearms in this country that they will rapidly disappear, in the mistaken belief that this will reduce the criminal use of firearms.
Please give careful consideration to the fact that the world is a dangerous place and that in Canada we enjoy an enormous land mass filled with water, resources, and food production capabilities that are the envy of the rest of the world. While we have probably the lowest population density of any nation, to protect this nation we have armed forces whose total numbers, according to a recent press report, are fewer than that of the New York City police department.
Should the day ever come again when civilians are needed to help defend this country, Canada may learn to bitterly regret Bill C-68, if it becomes law, for the effect it will have had on legitimate firearms' use and ownership.
This association has provided extensive assistance in marksmanship training to the Canadian forces in two world wars and in several lesser ones. It takes years to learn to shoot well. Recruits do not become skilled marksmen simply by putting on a uniform. Canadian troops have often survived and made major contributions in wartime because they grew up with a heritage of marksmanship training encouraged by groups such as ours and could outshoot their enemies.
Marksmanship is as important today, especially in the peacekeeping role, as it ever was. There is an old saying: to be assured of peace, prepare for war.
I can remember a time in 1940, not so very long ago, when the British government, faced with the prospect of a Nazi invasion, advertised widely across North America pleading for U.S. and Canadian gun owners to send their firearms to Britain to replace the pitchforks and staves, which were the only weapons that many of the troops and Home Guard members possessed. Pray to God that such a situation never occurs in Canada, particularly if the government forces adoption of Bill C-68.
.1545
Perhaps you will say to us that we exaggerate the situation and that Bill C-68 will not take firearms away from Canadian citizens. I ask the members of this committee: how many of you have actually examined the current firearms acquisition certificate application? I have one here. It's quite a document, all 10 foolscap pages of it, to fill out, just for an application. This is bureaucracy gone mad, and Bill C-68 only makes matters worse.
The government is attempting to appease a small segment of the public at the expense of all legitimate, law-abiding firearms owners. We have no objection to any action against criminals or the criminal misuse of firearms, but no criminal is ever going to be restricted by most of this bill.
Having said all of the foregoing, there are two areas that are of extreme concern to this association since they have already had very fundamental effects on our operations.
The first and major problem is the outright prohibition of the AR-15 rifle and its variants. This rifle is the commercial semi-automatic equivalent of the Canadian forces C-7 selective semi/full automatic rifle and is accepted in service rifle matches across Canada to permit civilians to engage in service rifle matches and to compete against the C-7 rifle. Marksmanship in the Canadian forces is stimulated by this civilian competition. This rifle was unrestricted originally, until the former bill, C-17, introduced under the former Conservative government, when it became restricted and has now been classified by regulation as prohibited, which legally prevents our members from using it.
We ask that the Colt AR-15 rifle and its variants be given some form of exemption from prohibition for DCRA members so that it can continue to be used in legitimate competitive training and matches at all levels.
Our second concern is with regard to the minimum age of ownership, which was changed by the former bill from 16 to 18 years of age. The only exemption from this requirement at the moment is for individuals under the age of 18 who require a firearm to hunt or trap in order to sustain themselves or their families.
We would like to see an exemption made for members of the cadet corps. This would permit especially those cadets who have shown great promise at the summer cadet camps and who may have been selected for the Canadian Bisley team for the following summer to continue their practice during the fall and spring, which is essential for their success in international competitions. Currently, because of the age law, this is impossible. I should point out that at the age of 18 cadets leave the cadet program. It is the 16- and 17-year-olds who most need this exemption.
We ask the committee to pay heed to our brief, to review Bill C-68 carefully and to eliminate from it the parts that may do Canada more harm than good. Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much, Mr. Kirton.
....................
Mr. Wappel: I'd like to understand the problem with the AR-15 in competition. Am I correct in assuming your concern is because this rifle is a semi-automatic and therefore it will be banned or prohibited or whatever the word may be? Is this the idea?
Mr. Kirton: It is specifically on the list of firearms that have become prohibited firearms by Order in Council.
Mr. Wappel: Okay. Now, we know the minister has said if there are competitions, let's hear about them, maybe we can come to some accommodation. Could you please tell the committee about the competitions that currently exist in Canada that use this rifle, the Colt AR-15, and its variants? How many people partake in them? How long have they been going on? Are they involved in working up toward Olympic sports? Can you tell the committee anything about these competitions with this specific type of rifle and its variants?
LCol Kaulbach: For the last, I suppose, 50 years or so the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association and its provincial rifle associations have been conducting competitions in connection with the regular force and the militia right across the country. At one point the members of the DCRA had the FNC-l and competed side by side with the militia and the regular force.
When the regular force went to what is now called the C-7, the civilian equivalent to that, the AR-15, was the one our people bought, because we run competitions for the military and on behalf of the military in every province in this country. When the Canadian forces national championships take place here at Connaught in July, there are many visiting teams from Great Britain and so on that come to shoot with our regular force and the militia, and our civilian members compete alongside those military teams.
Mr. Wappel: How many Candians are we talking about?
LCol Kaulbach: Canadians across the country, about 5,000.
Mr. Wappel: These are the civilians.
LCol Kaulbach: These are civilians, but these are in each of the provinces.
Here at Connaught we normally get about 200 civilians who compete side by side during the Canadian forces small arms competition.
Mr. Wappel: So the military would use the C-7, which is the military rifle and the civilian people, numbering some 5,000, would use the equivalent of this, which is the AR-15 and its variants.
LCol Kaulbach: Yes.
.1640
Mr. Wappel: These competitions have been going on for how long?
LCol Kaulbach: Ever since the formation of the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association.
Mr. Wappel: Way back in 1868.
LCol Kaulback: We didn't have automatic weapons at that time.
Mr. Wappel: No, I can appreciate that. These competitions continue and they are international competitions.
LCol Kaulbach: That's right.
Mr. Wappel: So one would presume what you're looking for at a minimum, the bottom line, would be some exemption to permit their use in competition?
LCol Kaulbach: Exactly.
Mr. Wappel: All right. Thank you.
To read the rest of the Committee transcripts check
http://www.parl.gc.ca/35/Archives/committees351/jula/english_committee.html
Knowing how we got here should be required reading for us all.
If it wasn't for the work of the DCRA we would not be able to buy or shoot an AR15 in Canada today. Will the DCRA be around next time to fight on your behalf?
I'd like to suggest a New Years resolution for all CGNers with an AR15 rifle in their gun-safe...
Join your Provincial Rifle Association and GET OUT AND SHOOT IT in 2009! Most PRA sites are linked below, and allow for downloading membership kits. Show your support, join up, send a cheque! It's some of the best shooting you can do in Canada.
http://www.dcra.ca/canadian_and_internatinal_organizations.htm
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