Wich metal lathe for small home gunsmith works ????

exseparatist

exseparatist

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Hello

I am looking for a metal lathe and a small milling machine for my basement. It is more for my pleasure and my personnal use than to make money.

There are the mini matal lathes, but I think a bigger machine will be better.
I think the spindle bore should receive at least a finished barrel at the chamber level (1.125 dia for the Savage large ring) ) or better, a Rem 700 action (near 1 5/16 in dia). Do I am right ? And I do not want to spend for a top notch hignt precision machine. I do not want a machine shop in my house and I do not print money !!!!

Does someone has experience with the Busy Bee Tools Craftex lathe ? Are tey acceptable ?

I am thinking for the CT034N model...

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT043N

Thank you

Ex
 
ah okay, so just recently i helped a friend move one of these out of a buddies place. we only had 3 steps to go out of the house and about 15 feet thru a garden to get this in to a truck... it was the hardest move i have ever done
i will say they are freaking heavy and if you want this in your basment i hope your basement is also you garage. as you can see on that web site that its 400kg .
 
exseparatist said:
I think the spindle bore should receive at least a finished barrel at the chamber level (1.125 dia for the Savage large ring) ) or better, a Rem 700 action (near 1 5/16 in dia). Do I am right
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My spindle bore is only 5/8" and I am quite happy with that for rebarreling and so forth. I think what you do want is at least 32" between centers so that you can support the barrel between two centers or between chuck and a tailstock center for threading and for chambering. You might be better off buying a good second hand lathe than a brand new one. Also would strongly recommend one with a quick change gear box and with a turret head for the tools

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
My spindle bore is only 5/8" and I am quite happy with that for rebarreling and so forth. I think what you do want is at least 32" between centers so that you can support the barrel between two centers or between chuck and a tailstock center for threading and for chambering. You might be better off buying a good second hand lathe than a brand new one. Also would strongly recommend one with a quick change gear box and with a turret head for the tools

cheers mooncoon
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Thank you for your valuables informations.

Do you mean that you are able to thread a barrel or make a crowning job without putting the barrel throught the spindle bore ?

I am considering a new lathe only because I am not machinist and I am a little bit scary to be screewed.
 
exseparatist said:
Thank you for your valuables informations.

Do you mean that you are able to thread a barrel or make a crowning job without putting the barrel throught the spindle bore ?

I am considering a new lathe only because I am not machinist and I am a little bit scary to be screewed.
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That is correct, you don't have to put the barrel through the spindle if you have enough distance between your centers, you could use a steady rest. Alot of the older lathes that people used in their homes like the south bend lathe did not have more than 5/8 or 3/4 inch spindle holes and you would have to work between centers anyway, I would say that a vast majority of the very early gunsmiths worked between centers because they had no choice, this technique is very precise and alot of very accurate work can be done this way. Someone commented that you should have a quick change gearbox, I have both types and aside from one being quicker to use there is no other differrence in the quality of the work.
bb
 
I would try to find a good used machine as well. This may seem a little extreme to some but you may also want to remove the floor where you plan to put the machine and pour a deeper base, as a couple inches of concrete probably wont be enough to properly support it. A rigid base will help your machine form warping, and find someone who will lend you a precision level to get it sitting square.
 
Good condition used lathes seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth. You almost have to luck into them. Those that do get posted for sale in local papers or online go really quickly if they are any sort of decent price.

If you don't mind saving a bit of money why not go with a belt drive machine?

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT041

My own 12 x 36 is a belt drive and it's been working perfectly well for over 15 years now and is still on the original belts. My only beef is that I keep having to remind myself not to set bits and pieces on the hinged top so I can get into the belt.

If you've got the room this size of machine will never leave you wanting more. They are solid and big enough to not only do the actual gunsmithing work but to also produce the bigger parts required for any sort of jigs or tooling that you may want to make for yourself rather than buying. Don't discount this last aspect. I've made many of my own holders, jigs and actual tooling. In a lot of cases it's a great way to learn and save money at the same time. I've even faced of my old truck's brake rotors with this size machine. Yes, you COULD go a bit smaller but overall I would not suggest going much smaller. Often by the time you get down to a machine that is small enough that you can't fit a barrel through the headstock you're into a situation where you can't fit it between centers or use a 4 jaw and steady rest and still crank the carraige far enough to the tail to crown a barrel.

If you're going to scrimp and save on one of the two machines I'd say that going for a slightly smaller milling machine makes more sense than going for a questionable lathe.

Bigbull, I'm not trying to discount your posts. Certainly you're right and you obviously know your setup stuff. For some of the older classic lathes where the spindle bore was relatively smaller than today's machines and where the bed happens to be long enough to hold the barrel in this manner you're info is spot on. The key is to figure out just how far the carraige will move and how much distance you get from the faceplate or center to the actual cutter that will be doing the job. That ends up being the barrel length limit. For many rifle barrels I'd suggest that we'd be hard pressed to fit them in this manner with less than a 36inch C-C bed length.
 
bigbull said:
That is correct, you don't have to put the barrel through the spindle if you have enough distance between your centers, you could use a steady rest.

Someone commented that you should have a quick change gearbox, I have both types and aside from one being quicker to use there is no other differrence in the quality of the work.
bb
Click to expand...

One advantage of supporting the barrel between centers or chambering with a chuck and a steady rest is that you do not have to worry about your lathe chuck being perfectly true (ie if the inside of the jaws are completely concentric to the head stock). If your barrel is supported by the chuck only and its jaws are not completely true, then your threads and chamber will not be completely concentric to the bore.

The advantage of the turret tool holder is that it saves time setting up tools each time you change operations. Just spin the turret around and bring another tool to bear.

cheers mooncoon
 
BCRider said:
Good condition used lathes seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth. You almost have to luck into them. Those that do get posted for sale in local papers or online go really quickly if they are any sort of decent price.

If you don't mind saving a bit of money why not go with a belt drive machine?

http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT041

My own 12 x 36 is a belt drive and it's been working perfectly well for over 15 years now and is still on the original belts. My only beef is that I keep having to remind myself not to set bits and pieces on the hinged top so I can get into the belt.

If you've got the room this size of machine will never leave you wanting more. They are solid and big enough to not only do the actual gunsmithing work but to also produce the bigger parts required for any sort of jigs or tooling that you may want to make for yourself rather than buying. Don't discount this last aspect. I've made many of my own holders, jigs and actual tooling. In a lot of cases it's a great way to learn and save money at the same time. I've even faced of my old truck's brake rotors with this size machine. Yes, you COULD go a bit smaller but overall I would not suggest going much smaller. Often by the time you get down to a machine that is small enough that you can't fit a barrel through the headstock you're into a situation where you can't fit it between centers or use a 4 jaw and steady rest and still crank the carraige far enough to the tail to crown a barrel.

If you're going to scrimp and save on one of the two machines I'd say that going for a slightly smaller milling machine makes more sense than going for a questionable lathe.

Bigbull, I'm not trying to discount your posts. Certainly you're right and you obviously know your setup stuff. For some of the older classic lathes where the spindle bore was relatively smaller than today's machines and where the bed happens to be long enough to hold the barrel in this manner you're info is spot on. The key is to figure out just how far the carraige will move and how much distance you get from the faceplate or center to the actual cutter that will be doing the job. That ends up being the barrel length limit. For many rifle barrels I'd suggest that we'd be hard pressed to fit them in this manner with less than a 36inch C-C bed length.
Click to expand...

BCRider you make a good point about verifying the distance the carriage travels. I use both conditions, one lathe has a long bed but a small spindle hole so long work is handled between centers and the other lathe has a short bed but a larger spindle hole and long work is handled through the headstock. I seldom chamber between centers since I no longer have to but when I use the smaller lathe the problem was always the length of the barrel and my reamer setup, it is rather long which eats up precious length since I drive the reamer with the tailstock, in summing up I would say your recommendation of 36" C to C is required for a lathe with a small spindle or if someone wants to work between centers. The trend today though is working through the headstock close to the chucked work and this also brings up other problems to look out for, for instance you should check the length of the headstock to make shure that you can get the barrel to come out the back so you can indicate or hold in a spider, if the headstock is too long this is not a desireable setup since the muzzle will be whipping around in there unsuported. The Standard Modern lathes are great because they are quite short through the headstock, finding a good one is not usually difficult but you have to be quick to snap it up when you find it.
bigbull
 
mooncoon said:
If your barrel is supported by the chuck only and its jaws are not completely true, then your threads and chamber will not be completely concentric to the bore.


cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...


mooncoon, the comment you made is true if you are only using a non adjustable three jaw chuck. The only way to get any kind of accuracy is to dial it in with a four jaw or an adjustable three jaw if you could afford one, I wish I had the money to buy an adjustable six jaw since I think they are the cats meow for anything in this trade, especially thin walled stuff.
bigbull
 
I go with BCRider on this one, good secondhand lathes are very hard to find and you have to spend a lot of time viewing poor examples ( bit like secondhand cars). It took me three year to find a machine and I must have looked at well over 200. Busy Bee lathe are OK for the money. Expect some quality issue, casting sand and metal chips in gear boxes, stripped bolts etc. but this is still common on these machines. The Busy Bee lathe which seem to give the best result is the older belt driven model :
http://busybeetools.ca/cgi-bin/picture10?NTITEM=CT041
Its a pain changing the belts but is a very solid well designed machine. However it weighs over 900 pounds and the only way to get it in to a basement is through a window opening using a ramp and winch. I've take one out of a basement and it is something I would not want to try too often.
 
another thing to watch for when you buy it make shure you have the right power
a lot are 3 phase and 575 volts

and what you probably need is 2 phase 240Volt
 
For used machines from mills the 3phase issue sure does need to be checked. And there's only single and 3 phase. No two phase. I'm guessing you meant to say single phase.

The 12 x 36 and 12 x 24 short versions(more rare now but popular a few years ago) from the "usual" home shop tool suppliers all pretty much need to be run from 220V single phase. The odd one may be useable on 110 but you can bet it won't be happy about it and will tend to pop the breaker on a regular basis.

Like monkeycanada discovered I also found sand or grinding grit in and on the entire machine so the first step was to tear the entire machine down one sub assembly at a time and clean it. While I was at this I dressed all the edges of the ground surfaces since they had been left as sharp as a razor. The front apron box in particular shocked me because it not only didn't have the oil bath in it but the gears were totally dry. As in "degreased" dry. Why they had not rusted I'll never know. But on the whole the machine is well built and machined where it counted. The rest was just the price we pay for getting a relative bargain. When you compare these to a US or European made machine yes those are all nicely done and ready to go but you will pay at least 4 times the cost for that extra attention.

I've since learned that most of the stuff coming from the Orient is assembled in much cleaner conditions and it's not as common to find the same debris or grit inside the working parts. But don't take this for granted. Strip down the tail stock or slide the cross slide dovetal off and check the lube and surrounding areas for signs of this grit that would wear the machine needlessly in a short time. If you find thing you don't like then dive in with a strip down and reassembly. It's worth it.
 
I know there has been lots of talk of the Busy Bee lathes but what about a short drive down to the US for a Grizley.

They have a "gunsmith" model which I've been looking at for a number of years but they also have a lot of other models including some combo units that come with a small milling machine
 
"The chap who owns Grizzly in the US" is some sort of relation to one of the machine dealers here in Canada. I am not sure that is BuzyBee. I believe they sorta have a unwritten rule that they will not ship to the others respective counties.

I have been looking at the "smaller" Grizz 'smithing lathe, and think it would be the catsazz.

Later.........
 
LeRoy said:
"The chap who owns Grizzly in the US" is some sort of relation to one of the machine dealers here in Canada. I am not sure that is BuzyBee. I believe they sorta have a unwritten rule that they will not ship to the others respective counties.

I have been looking at the "smaller" Grizz 'smithing lathe, and think it would be the catsazz.

Later.........
Click to expand...
Pretty easy to get around.
 
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