Wild horses in Alberta

[Longwalker]

Quote:
"But for sake of argument lets say the current horses in Alberta are decendents of escaped logging horses from the late 1800's and early 1900's thats still over a 100yrs the species has been roaming as a free,wild species in Alberta. long enough to have adapated to their soroundings as well as their surrounding adapt to them."

With respect Chopperhead, I cannot agree that horses are "wild", they are feral. One hundred years is not anywhere near enough time for an ecosystem to " adapt" to a new large grazing species. The ecosystem "adapts" through extinction of plants that can't compete with the horse's close-cropping style of grazing, and invasion by less palatable, toxic species - mainly weeds. The result is less habitat for all native species that rely on native forage plants. Horses ARE native to the Mongolian Steppes. All your arguments have some ecological merit there.

Without effective predators, and with no human intervention in this "human caused" problem, ecological degredation is inevitable. Even native species unchecked may cause huge proglems. Do you know about the Kaibab Plateau predator elimination experiment in Arizona??
Famous ecologist and conservationist Aldo Leopold said it best - "in the absence of predators, a mountain is in fear of it's deer"
I have studied rangeland management in University and apply that knowledge on my own land, and I know that constant, unlimited grazing by horses is not sustainable.

 

[MiG25]

Well Wild Pigs are Pests horses are not.

if feral horses aren't pests, why did the BC gov't used to pay a bounty on them. bring in the ears and get $2 or whatever it was.

 

[sjemac]

3. Their groups are small, very inbred and very unhealthy. This is one of the reasons you don't see cowboys bothering to go in and round them up and break them.

I live in the area the horses were shot. When the locals DO get permits to round them up it is to ship them to the slaughter house. Most guys believe them to be unsuitable as mounts. Media doesn't mention that -- demonize the firearm but politely neglect to mention the bolt gun and long drive in a cattle car.

I see them every single time I'm in the back country and have a few valleys that I take people into to view them when they desire a guaranteed wild horse viewing.

They do tear the crap out of the areas they frequent. I have nothing against someone shooting them provided they make use of the meat. Were it legal, I myself would shoot one now and then for the meat. Part of me likes to see them in the wild but the biologist in me knows they, like pigeons, starlings, and rats are not beneficial to the ecosystem and should NOT be protected in any way.

 

[Chopperhead]

The only Liberal around here is the one who can make statements like yours but have never seen the issue first hand.



But yet not any experiance with either. Though from what you have read on the interweb, you are almost 100 percent sure of this statement.



Because I have seen the issue with my own eyes. You have not. But yet, you have never seen a wild horse.

That seems to be the biggest problem with the issue I asked about. Most people give thier opinions basesd on personal feelings instead of actuall fact. Sounds kinda like the Liberals and the issue of gun control.



When you have one ounce of evidence to support your comments I will most deffinately listen.

Just dont tell me things like wild pigs are pests, yet wild horses are not and have absolutely nothing to support your opinion.

Like I said before, I guess from the start instead of asking for opinions, I should have asked to hear from people with first hand experiance, which it is quite obvious that not many people here have.

WOW ok your right and I apologise, I don't know first hand what they can do (although I have seen first hand what pigs can do to an area) . I was posting at 2 or 3am lol not a good idea

anyway Ive had time to step back and look at what your saying and I suppose your correct. They need to be managed. however the real lack of solid info is not helpful. I think a study needs to be conducted by the Alberta government to figure out how many there actually are, what their impact is etc etc. then you can make a decion on what to do based on that.


if feral horses aren't pests, why did the BC gov't used to pay a bounty on them. bring in the ears and get $2 or whatever it was.

Just because a governmnet has done something doesn't make them right. (not saying they are or arnt here)

 

[Chopperhead]

Quote:
"But for sake of argument lets say the current horses in Alberta are decendents of escaped logging horses from the late 1800's and early 1900's thats still over a 100yrs the species has been roaming as a free,wild species in Alberta. long enough to have adapated to their soroundings as well as their surrounding adapt to them."

With respect Chopperhead, I cannot agree that horses are "wild", they are feral. One hundred years is not anywhere near enough time for an ecosystem to " adapt" to a new large grazing species. The ecosystem "adapts" through extinction of plants that can't compete with the horse's close-cropping style of grazing, and invasion by less palatable, toxic species - mainly weeds. The result is less habitat for all native species that rely on native forage plants. Horses ARE native to the Mongolian Steppes. All your arguments have some ecological merit there.

Without effective predators, and with no human intervention in this "human caused" problem, ecological degredation is inevitable. Even native species unchecked may cause huge proglems. Do you know about the Kaibab Plateau predator elimination experiment in Arizona??
Famous ecologist and conservationist Aldo Leopold said it best - "in the absence of predators, a mountain is in fear of it's deer"
I have studied rangeland management in University and apply that knowledge on my own land, and I know that constant, unlimited grazing by horses is not sustainable.

Well there's no proof one way or the other that these horses currently there, are from the 19th and early 20th centuries. they may have been there for 100's of year before hand. regardless of that your right they can't be left unchecked but but controlling a species is diffrent from extermination that some people out there would like to see.

Just outa curiousity since you seem to be semi knowledgable in the subject, How did newfoundland manage to introduce Moose to the realtivly small Island and yet they seem to be doing fine?? would such a large animal in such a small place not reak untold havok???

 

[crazy_davey]

Well there's no proof one way or the other that these horses currently there, are from the 19th and early 20th centuries. they may have been there for 100's of year before hand.

This is what the Alberta Government, says so I will stick with that for this disscussion.

Alberta’s free-ranging horses are primarily descendants of domestic horses that were used in logging and guiding/outfitting operations west of Sundre in the early 1900’s. When the horses were no longer needed, they were set free. Since then, these horses have produced several generations of offspring and continue to occupy the area around the original operations west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House. These numbers were added to over the years by escaped and illegally released horses. Early attempts to round up the horses (in the 1920’s) were unsuccessful. Today there continues to be a viable population of free-ranging horses in this area.

 

[MiG25]

How did newfoundland manage to introduce Moose to the realtivly small Island and yet they seem to be doing fine?? would such a large animal in such a small place not reak untold havok???

i have my doubts that everything is A-OK with the moose in newfoundland. i don't know for sure but i suspect that a forester would have something to say about the moose.

 

[Noel]

If there is any fuel needed for this fire let me know. My wife's Uncle was the one from the Sundre Detachment they interviewed for CTV and the various papers. Mind you I bet he's getting it from all sides still......

All I know when I go to the west country, I'd much rather see a herd of Deer or Elk grazing on a slope than a bunch of feral horses.

It isn't hard to find 40 to 60 of them in one day, without even trying in one part of the WMU 318. There are way more out there than what anyone is letting on.

 

[crazy_davey]

Mind you I bet he's getting it from all sides still......

I bet your right! I wouldnt want that job

But maybe now that it is back in the spotlight people will start looking at the whole overall issue again.

 

[Chopperhead]

i have my doubts that everything is A-OK with the moose in newfoundland. i don't know for sure but i suspect that a forester would have something to say about the moose.

Maybe, I dunno. That was an honest question as Id like to know. not trying to make a point or anything with it, Id just like to know.

 

[nexgen]

Why wouldn't it work to round up a certain number of horses every year and ship them to slaughter, let it be a gov't control program carried out by the gov't employees. I think that if there was a hunt it would sure provide a lot of ammo for the anti's. Just imagine the ad campaigns they would come up with from a bunch of dead horses with a few guys standing proudly rifles in hand. It's just me but I can't imagine why anyone would want to hunt horses, I know they are feral/wild, whatever, but I think the gov't run program would be the answer.
I've never seen the results of a wild horse herd, but I have seen the effects of a small herd of wild pigs on a 200 acre woodlot, everything that they could possibly destroy was gone, only the bigger trees left, no low growing vegetation at all ( in NS)

 

[Noel]

Why wouldn't it work to round up a certain number of horses every year and ship them to slaughter, let it be a gov't control program carried out by the gov't employees. I think that if there was a hunt it would sure provide a lot of ammo for the anti's. Just imagine the ad campaigns they would come up with from a bunch of dead horses with a few guys standing proudly rifles in hand. It's just me but I can't imagine why anyone would want to hunt horses, I know they are feral/wild, whatever, but I think the gov't run program would be the answer.
I've never seen the results of a wild horse herd, but I have seen the effects of a small herd of wild pigs on a 200 acre woodlot, everything that they could possibly destroy was gone, only the bigger trees left, no low growing vegetation at all ( in NS)

I rekon the Horse lovers would cry foul on anything to do do with reducing or trying to keep the current "low" population the same. From the Round Up article I read, they want to allow the herd to grow to a healthy number.

 

[sjemac]

It is an issue based completely on emotion and not science. nobody actually tracks the horse numbers and any estimates are little more than pure conjecture. Alberta F and W does not recognize them as wild animals but as feral ones and therefore wants to have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. nor do they want to spend ANY of their already stretched thin resources dealing with it or studying it.

Does anyone even know what the fine is for killing a "wild horse". I doubt it's more than the couple of grand you get for killing an elk or moose out of season. The Wild Horse Society is offering $4500 for the conviction of the culprits. Maybe the culprit should turn himself in, confess and garner a $2500 dollar profit.

 

[crazy_davey]

It is an issue based completely on emotion and not science. nobody actually tracks the horse numbers and any estimates are little more than pure conjecture. Alberta F and W does not recognize them as wild animals but as feral ones and therefore wants to have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. nor do they want to spend ANY of their already stretched thin resources dealing with it or studying it.

That is exactly it. Allthough the Alberta Government has done a study and knows exactly what is happening with the issue, but I think choose to avoid the topic all together.

I have been trying to find the study information but cant find it. I think it was posted on SRD's webpage if I can remeber correctly

 

[a j cave]

just nice looking rats

years ago these horses were fair game. The could be cought or shot.a horse allway has its head down eating & is hard on the grassland. That said,they are protected and should be left alone or removed & sold to those that would take them. ps most a farm or pack animals that have got away.

 

[huntinstuff]

If the wild horses are cause for damage and pushing other wildlife out of an area, could we also include golf courses and ski hills?
I've set up camp with my horses and mules in the Forget-me-Not area (I think you know that area Dave). the wild horses have never caused me a lick of problem.

What took you so long?????4th post..I had $50 to say you 'd be first......

History shows that whatever roamed the prairies free eventually got shot, whether it was horses, buffalo, prairie chickens, and even native Indians.(dont get all out-of-tune, it's true)

I kinda agree with gitrdun....I can see where some would have an argument against the wild horses but personally I like them there.

 

[huntinstuff]

Here is another question. How do you as hunters feel about wild or feral pigs that roam free(and yes they do exsist)? Should they be protected as well?

Pigs are ugly critters and should be shot......

 

[gitrdun]

I'm not sure what the horses in the Sundre area look like or if there might be some good potential for a few good ranch horses, Noel would probably be best located to answer that question (or maybe some dude from Ontario ),

So, what do you say Noel, you've seen them...any good horses in that bunch? All in all, I'm not against "culling the herd" shall we say. I just wouldn't want it to become a free for all. I just wouldn't be the one doing it, I ride them. I've been known to threaten a couple, but they ususally come around

As far as pigs are concerned, count me in, I'd love to hunt one and bring home the bacon.

Huntinstuff: sorry 'bout that Randy, I'll have to buy $50.00 worth of rum one day.

 

[a j cave]

gitrdun-there are indeed some good stock running in Sundry area & a few ranchers that would be happy to see them out of the stacks.

 

[crazy_davey]

I'm not sure what the horses in the Sundre area look like or if there might be some good potential for a few good ranch horses, Noel would probably be best located to answer that question (or maybe some dude from Ontario ),

So, what do you say Noel, you've seen them...any good horses in that bunch? All in all, I'm not against "culling the herd" shall we say. I just wouldn't want it to become a free for all. I just wouldn't be the one doing it, I ride them. I've been known to threaten a couple, but they ususally come around

As far as pigs are concerned, count me in, I'd love to hunt one and bring home the bacon.

Huntinstuff: sorry 'bout that Randy, I'll have to buy $50.00 worth of rum one day.

Noel wouldnt know what a good horse looks like if it came up and bit him in the ass, he is scared of them