Wilderness Handgun Safety Course

Excellent thread - please keep us updated, especially through the ATC application portion.

That will be a while for me, but maybe next year or two I will post a follow up. I am sure there are plenty of guys on here who have their wilderness ATCs and ATTs, so they could answer if they decide to come out of the woodworks...

PS. For Ontario residents, you can find an instructor on your area here: http://www.fseso.org/public-instructor-search
 
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I think it's great that these courses and wilderness ATC's are available in other parts of Canada. . I recently inquired about the wilderness ATC'S in Nova Scotia and was told that there has never been one issued and wern't available here. Was told that there is no dangerous wildlife here and that if I felt that there was dangerous wildlife here that I should stay out of the woods when I can't carry my long gun for a open hunting season. ...
 
Hey Boomer,

Great reply, everything you touched on was pretty much discussed at length during the course, which would be difficult to reiterate into one reply. I must say everyone else thought the strong side carry was ridiculous too, and you would have fit right in, because like you said, it should be what suits us. Unfortunately, in order to carry in a shoulder, or cross-draw, holster, and even protected, was something you have to justify wjth the CFO, such as writing a letter, and taking pictures of you wearing your kit, videos, etc...

Also, the minimum cartridge was .357 Magnum, unless you were in polar bear country, which I think is fair because it was understood a gun too hot to handle is more useless than a gun you could shoot even though it had less power. I think that is why it was required that you bring the gun you intended to carry to qualify with. Bullet selection, and so forth, was talked about and how heavier bullets tend to penetrate better in most corcumstances, and how faced bullets did a better job and breaking through bone, as opposed to round-nosed bullets which could easily ricochet, etc. Interestingly, back in the day, they were approving guys for .45 ACP, .38 Special, etc., but will no longer issue ATCs, and ATTs for anyone wishing to carry those guns.

In regards to the course of fire. It was aimed at proving that you had reasonable control over your firearm and could hit an animal reliably. Although ideally you would smack them in the loonie sized snout, or the playing card sized spot between their eyes, but that is something that practicing will help a person improve. Not to sound like I disagree with what you're saying is best, but I would say most people who need an ATC for wilderness protection are not target shooters, so requiring them to be able to hit a bear in the snout at 10 yards, in order to pass is a bit unrealistic. However, these requirements were discussed and decided on by the training organization in Ontario, and the CFO. Each province is different, with BC rumoured as being especially stringent because of the grizzlies. I think what is boils down to is reasonableness, not what is most ideal. If only 1 person in 20 were capable of hitting a loonie sized snout target, or playing cars sized skull target at 10 yards, then what need is there for the CFO to continue to issuing ATCs and ATTs if nobody could hit the target that we decided was adequate? I think what you said is most important, that what is boils down to is practice, which is why they made it a requirement that ATC holders also must belong to a shooting club to maintain proficiency (which is a no brainer). Myself and the individuals taking the course were all target shooters, so it went without saying, but for those who weren't the instructor would heavily stress the practice part. Things could change though, and if you don't pass your recert, you have to take the course all over again until you do.

edit: by the way, that training drill looks amazing! I don't think my outdoor range would allow it, for handguns "no midrange targets, and all must go into the back stop." However, at the indoor range, the target holders move pretty fast....

The problem with traditional indoor target holders is that the target is vertical rather than horizontal, so a target that moves rapidly towards you doesn't require any lead. Additionally the indoor target moves along a smooth track rather than bouncing and rolling unpredictably. But we have the world we've got, rather than the world we'd like to have, so train as best you can.

My point with respect to marksmanship is not to suggest that one be an olympic target shot, but windage errors must be minimized due to the narrow target width, while elevation errors are less critical since a spine shot is a stopper in addition to the brain shot. IMHO, if you can't keep your rounds on a 3" wide target at a range of 15 or 20 feet, you'll be unable to protect yourself with that gun. A 6" group is the accuracy required for a chest shot, and a chest shot might well kill the bear . . . eventually, but it won't force him to stop doing whatever it was that caused you to shoot him in the first place. A false sense of security does no one any good. Marksmanship during qualification shoots or during training lacks the adrenaline dump that accompanies a dangerous bear encounter, and in a real deal situation you won't shoot as well as you would at the range. When these things occur, you hope you'll prevail, but you never really know how things will work out until its over, but its a cool demeanor under difficult circumstances that will most likely in the day. I as reminded of this last summer hen my wife and I happened upon one particularly bad tempered fella. I made an attempt to put a humorous spin on it in the thread Waking Grouchy (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1266355-Waking-Grouchy) but the truth is it was pretty intense. That was the closest I've come to shooting a bear in a long time, and the Vaqero is what as in my hand; be sure I rebuked myself for not having my .375 or my .458 instead of the .44.

Anyway, the good news is that you guys have a course you can take, and it sounds like the folks teaching it have a good grasp of the subject matter. Although I aluded to the use of flat point bullets, I didn't take the time to explain why they are the correct choice.
 
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Hey Boomer,

Thanks again, and you're 150% right in line with what was mentioned. One thing that was interesting and mentioned was contact shots, and how if you were to discharge your handgun pressed into the animal, it would create a significantly more damaging wound, and you would probably stop him, but the amount of #### that sprays out when that temporary wound cavity collapses is almost guaranteed to jam your gun, especially a revolver (caught in the front of the cylinder), and probably even an automatic pistol. If pressing your pistol against a bear doesn't push the slide out of battery, you actually stand a good chance to get more than one shot off if whatever comes out doesn't plug your barrel. I thought that was something interesting to know that I had never thought about.
 
Hey Boomer,

Thanks again, and you're 150% right in line with what was mentioned. One thing that was interesting and mentioned was contact shots, and how if you were to discharge your handgun pressed into the animal, it would create a significantly more damaging wound, and you would probably stop him, but the amount of #### that sprays out when that temporary wound cavity collapses is almost guaranteed to jam your gun, especially a revolver (caught in the front of the cylinder), and probably even an automatic pistol. If pressing your pistol against a bear doesn't push the slide out of battery, you actually stand a good chance to get more than one shot off if whatever comes out doesn't plug your barrel. I thought that was something interesting to know that I had never thought about.

What can happen to a human being once a bear makes contact is terrible. My mantra is that the bear can't hurt me if it can't touch me, and the role of the defensive firearm is to ensure that remains true. Once the bear makes contact, all bets are off. Even if you've killed the bear, if you're in a remote area, your chances of surviving a serious bear inflicted injury are not very good without a helicopter on standby. There was a double mauling down the street a couple of years ago, and it was pretty bad for the folks who were injured, and they immediately had help to drive the bear off, they were taken to the local hospital and stabilized, then the Life Flight to Winnipeg for emergency surgery. Watching bears feed has convinced me I never intend to be on the receiving end of that type of activity, so the fact that propellant gases from a contact gunshot increase the severity of the wound, I don't consider relevant to the discussion. If your arms are broken or denuded, or your chest or your skull is crushed, the fight is pretty much over; never forget how these guys make a living.
 
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Found your handgun for recertification in 2024 too :)
 
If I had it in me to pay $3-$4K+ for a handgun, I'd bite on a .500 Wyoming from Freedom Arms, they have a nice fixed sight 45/8" version; the belted cartridge and 5 round cylinder keep the gun a reasonable size. For the most part though, I don't think over-sized hunting handguns are needed or even beneficial for the bear defense role. The guns that are the size of traditional service pistols are more appropriate, when one wishes to be armed while making a living; the only way to qualify for an ATC at this juncture. When a handgun approaches the weight of an ultralight hunting rifle, it's role becomes obscure. On a positive note for ATC holders who share my enthusiasm for SA revolvers, Ruger is apparently bringing back the .44 magnum version of the Vaquero.
 
Hi, that's good info. I'm going to apply in bc soon. I've had big bears sniffing my head a few times when sleeping and met many out there- never had more then a charge though and I either bluffed it off or had bear spray and it worked. I usually just notice them after they've been(probably) watching me for a while. They aren't interested in me other then the observation. It's only that one in a thou.. I map out and build trails and other mapping needs. I spend lots of overnights as it's far out&elevation. My big question is; what do experienced people think of a good 10mm load, maybe in a-g20?multi shots and I can shoot 9mm well. Bear spray really works but I'm in same area often and see the same bears,even year after year- some seam to 'stalk'( lack of better word). Moose and caribou carcasses out there so I'm small- they know. If it's really hungry it's coming back after the spray. I have a 10g shotgun with good slug- it's heavy, awkward and I'm building or always need my hands. No good in sleeping bag- or tent even. I'd like a chest harness like my radio. Seen cougars too and if it's coming it's on you with no notice- knife or a gun in chest. How'd your application go- what type of proof did you need? Thx. - I'm prob going to buy a trap line that will come up in next few. Not much fur out there but gives me a temp cabin in a great area. Also- do you actually need a course to get a carry licence.
-- I've figured out the search function so 10mm questions answered. Anyone else actually needed to go past the spray- any stalking encounters- good stories?
 
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