will 200gr .30-06 give similiar performance as 35 whelen?

[WhelanLad]

can get some speer hot cor for a good price an thinkin of grabbing them, 3x boxes of 50 for $99 plus post... quite good for todays standard down under...

wondering if this is going to give similiar results as the .35 whelen ??
i would use it as a Bush Stalking load and 250m would be about it pending the Drop at 300 but seldom see this when stalking the bush / across gulley style.

ive been thinkin of selling the .35, or at least Retiring it completely an have wondered if the 200gr .30-06 would make up for the loss ?

what do you all say about this?

 

[bearhunter]

Depending on barrel length, you should be able to get 2600-2700fps, safely from your 200gr bullet from a 30-06 case.

My favorite load for this combination is 58.0gr of H4831 over CCI 250 primers.

In most manuals this is close to or maybe a maximum load, so it likely wouldn't be suitable for the M96 Mausers chambered for 30-06.

This load, has better sectional density than bullets of the same weight loaded in the 35 Whelan, but the Whelan gives you a very slightly larger cross section, which may make an extremely slight difference at close range.

The 30-06, loaded with 200grn bullets, generating 2600+fps, is a mauler IMHO and if sighted two inches high at 100ys (4cm), will be good for point of aim to point of impact shots out past 200 yds.

 

[4fifty8]

Need some numbers to compare do KPS calc's for 100m only a general idea -

KPS = energy@100m x cross-sectional area x sectional density

.30-06 200gr: KPS = (2450) (0.25) (3.14) (0.308^2) (0.301) = 54.9

.35 Whelen 250gr: KPS = (2700) (0.25) (3.14) (0.358^2) (0.279) = 75.8

.35 Whelen more wallop than .30-06 calc's support this I sure like how .35 Whelen performs on Elk & Moose.

 

[BCBRAD]

Yes it will. A 200 NAB at 2650 ft/s has a very similar response on a moose as does the 35 Whelen. Used a 35 Whelen exclusively for 20 years, results good with both the 200gn bullet may have a better trajectory.

 

[bearhunter]

Need some numbers to compare do KPS calc's for 100m only a general idea -

KPS = energy@100m x cross-sectional area x sectional density

.30-06 200gr: KPS = (2450) (0.25) (3.14) (0.308^2) (0.301) = 54.9

.35 Whelen 250gr: KPS = (2700) (0.25) (3.14) (0.358^2) (0.279) = 75.8

.35 Whelen more wallop than .30-06 calc's support this I sure like how .35 Whelen performs on Elk & Moose.

Well, now you just changed the parameters of the OP's question.

When push comes to shove WITH "200 GRAIN" bullets, the 30-06 with the same weight bullets gets the nod.

That being said, neither of these rounds are slouches and I doubt there is an animal in North America that will notice the difference.

I've used the 35 Whelan, 338-06, 30-06, 338-08 and 8x57js with 200 grain bullets on everything from marmots to Deer, Elk, Moose and Black Bears.

They all work very well and there is zero difference between their killing abilities when all things, such as bullet weight and velocities are equal.

When you start making changes to pump your dream cartridge, it's a personal thing for you, which I fully understand.

You deliberately reduced the velocity of the 200grn 30-06 to promote your argument and increased the bullet weight/velocity of the 35 Whelan to cover it up.

Whelan Lad, there are no flies on either cartridge.

 

[WhelanLad]

how abut thee parameters.

35 whelen 250gr at 2450.....
V
30-06 200gr at 2450....

thats more realistic of my numbers from my Whelen loads and likely the 200gr 06 loads.

Guy sold the projies on me persay, but i may grab some from a shop anyway for a few bucks more

 

[4fifty8]

Woodleigh 30 caliber 240gr might be the way to go.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...SsKwN24d32IfkUF2YwPQxU5ks8VWmsjVdY&pid=458262

From my 20" barrel .30-06 I get just under 2300 fps mv.

 

[Eagleye]

In a 24" barrelled 30-06, I have always been able to reach 2700 with the 200 grain Partition, using Norma MRP
or H4831. In a 22" barrel, 2650 is a realistic figure. I have shot several large moose and at least 2 Elk with this
combination. It is a hammer, to be sure. My experience with the Whelen is not quite as extensive, and I never used
anything over 225 grain in mine. Killed about the same as the '06, as far as I could see. '06 has a slight trajectory
advantage after 275 yards, but not enough to make an issue out of. Dave.

 

[WhelanLad]

Im starting to like this idea a bit-

it will definatly only be 200 Grain .30 cal , Speer is most likely the go.

Cuzin happens to own a gun store an the Other cuzz , hes brother, works in a bigger one down near the city....
so can get a decent deal on most things persay..... can get the hot cors for a good price off him- only $3 a pack more than the "good deal" that was online... cheering!

ima guna do it for nothing more than back up projies an for Ron.... a step closer to selling the whelen lol

 

[Potashminer]

If it helps - not sure it will - I have Speer #14 Reloading Manual - dated 2007 - page 487 shows two Speer 200 grain 30 calibre bullets - Spitzer SP #2211 and Grand Slam SP #2212. Page 474 says they used 22" Rem 700 to test 30-06 - Winchester cases and CCI 200 and 250 primers. 15 powders listed - top four all above 2,450 fps muzzle - highest "Max" velocity shown is 2,554 fps. Page 488 shows a third Speer 200 grain 30 calibre bullet - TBBC SP #1770 - 7 powders listed - slowest "Max" velocity is 2,443 fps, up to 2,571 fps with other powders. Contact me by PM if you want/need that data.

 

[bearhunter]

Yup, those loads are pretty much normal for most manuals but they only generate 45,000cup to 48,000 cup and are purposely light in defference to the weaker actions many 30-06 rifles are built on and because many folks insist on using those loads in M1 Garands, etc.

When the handloader has a good strong action,

Out of three different rifles, Custom 98 Mauser, 23'' bbl, Rem 700, 22'' bbl, and a Sako with a 21" bbl, all of them generate 2600-2700fps with two different loads from the Lyman #50 manual.

54.0 grains of IMR 4350 and 58.0 grains of H4831 in three different brands of brass, using CCI250 primers

Not trying to get into a pizzing contest, just results from a different manual.

Speer Hot Cor and Grand Slam are my go to bullets for the 30-06, usually 180-200 grains.

I've shot a lot of game with those bullets and never had a bullet failure at those velocities. Unless heavy bones are encountered, such as a shoulder joint, I've never recovered a bullet shot under 150 yards. Those I have recovered have be on shots 200yds+ and the bullets functioned perfectly, with at least 50+% weight retention and petalling.

Bullets recovered were usually on the far side, just under the skin.

Whelan Lad, if you're looking to get a bit more room in the safe or just getting components which are more available, the nod is to the 30-06.

The advantage the Whelan has over the 30-06 is being able to push HEAVIER bullets, 225+ grains and heavier faster, but IMHO the only difference is an advantage in energy delivered on target under 150 yds.

I really like the 35 Whelan, but components and ammunition availability has always been a problem.

30 cal and 338 cal have always been readily available for me.

In present times, bullet availability is the biggest hurdle IMHO.

 

[9.3mauser]

Cuzin happens to own a gun store an the Other cuzz , hes brother, works in a bigger one down near the city....
so can get a decent deal on most things persay.....

Since you have connections see if they can set you up with some slower powders. You'll never get the most out of a .30/06 and heavy bullets using varget.

 

[bearhunter]

Since you have connections see if they can set you up with some slower powders. You'll never get the most out of a .30/06 and heavy bullets using varget

Yup

 

[WhelanLad]

.

Whelan Lad, if you're looking to get a bit more room in the safe or just getting components which are more available, the nod is to the 30-06.

The advantage the Whelan has over the 30-06 is being able to push HEAVIER bullets, 225+ grains and heavier faster, but IMHO the only difference is an advantage in energy delivered on target under 150 yds.

I really like the 35 Whelan, but components and ammunition availability has always been a problem.

30 cal and 338 cal have always been readily available for me.

In present times, bullet availability is the biggest hurdle IMHO.

Yea mate bit of all the above.
The Whelen isnt common here in regard to new guns- So i could be holding onto it for as one day someone wants a factory chambered Whelen, ruger..... but at the same time, My Safe is full now with my Partners new addition, an ive got a bunch between the 708-303-3006 which do the same stuff basically.
im lucky that i have a good few hundred .358 projies for now-- which are more or less just on standby for the occaison i use the gun.

but the heavy 30-06 bullets got me thinkin about moving on the "HEAVY" ruger 35, because it will do the same stuff just not as cool sayin "i got a 3006" as it is saying, "i shoot a whelen".... you know the drift here.

new projectile prices are gettin well up there an would be better to invest in .308 cal stuff than more .35 stuff---

can get alot of 200gr .35 stuff for reasonable price .80c a bullet... but it goes up from there to about $1.4 a bullet for Hornady 250grainers. an speer being tad over $1 a bullet.......

i guess im ok for bullets for it for now- will likely just leave it in the Safe for a while but build the 3006 up eventually once go thru the 180gr stuff an move into 200gr -- the Whelen wouldnt hardly get a run.

will invest in a slower powder too, thats noted thanks fellas!

 

[WhelanLad]

Since you have connections see if they can set you up with some slower powders. You'll never get the most out of a .30/06 and heavy bullets using varget.

i hear ya here, but i often question- how much more do i need or want out of the 3006?

im not one for recoil , to my understanding more powder, higher velocity will equal more recoil-- not sure i need that?

300 meters = a backline hold with a 2500 give or take muzzle velocity with most calibres 150-250grains. i dont shoot past that stalking-
at 30 meters, any more Speed may be detrimental to the SP C&C bullets i opt to use on the big deer... slowing them down a tad eliminates alot of that drama--- and at what cost? im not seeing anything that im losing out on?

my 2-7x33 can barely see past 350

i like the .308 Winchester, I own the .30-06 out of oppertunity of the Rifle (left hand A bolt II ) so i feel like i got the goods with Varget doing its thing-

it may be worth it for the 200grainers.... i dont need a max load an pressure may be lowered etc. noted

 

[9.3mauser]

i hear ya here, but i often question- how much more do i need or want out of the 3006?

im not one for recoil , to my understanding more powder, higher velocity will equal more recoil-- not sure i need that?

Well, speed kills and you were complaining about slow kills with your 7-08 with heavy bullets. Keep your mv up and the impact velocity will be higher. If you're going to settle for 2,450 you might as well launch them out of a .308.

 

[Fox]

Well, now you just changed the parameters of the OP's question.

When push comes to shove WITH "200 GRAIN" bullets, the 30-06 with the same weight bullets gets the nod.

That being said, neither of these rounds are slouches and I doubt there is an animal in North America that will notice the difference.

I've used the 35 Whelan, 338-06, 30-06, 338-08 and 8x57js with 200 grain bullets on everything from marmots to Deer, Elk, Moose and Black Bears.

They all work very well and there is zero difference between their killing abilities when all things, such as bullet weight and velocities are equal.

When you start making changes to pump your dream cartridge, it's a personal thing for you, which I fully understand.

You deliberately reduced the velocity of the 200grn 30-06 to promote your argument and increased the bullet weight/velocity of the 35 Whelan to cover it up.

Whelan Lad, there are no flies on either cartridge.

A 200gr pill in a 35 Whelen can be pushed at a faster speed than a 200gr pill in a 3006 with the same pressure, this is why the heavier bullets in the 35 whelen have the same maximum safe velocity as the lighter bullets in the 3006.

The 200gr 3006 will not have the same knock down power as a 250gr 35 Whelen when pushed at the same velocity until you get out a ways, depending on the BC.

That being said, on normal game will that be a factor? Depends.

The 35 Whelen is allowed in some African nations for dangerous game where the 3006 is not, it is a wider bullet and has a different impact on game.

 

[Rick]

can get some speer hot cor for a good price an thinkin of grabbing them, 3x boxes of 50 for $99 plus post... quite good for todays standard down under...

wondering if this is going to give similiar results as the .35 whelen ??

In the real world on game, given the same make and model of bullet in the same weight, there will be no identifiable difference when hit in the same spot with either caliber of those bullets.

The 30 caliber 200 grainer will have better sectional density and flatter ballistics. The 35 caliber has a more advantageous expansion ratio getting the same or better ballistics out of less of the same powder; powder weight is one of the factors in recoil energy. If you have a less than maximum velocity in mind and hope to somewhat mitigate recoil, you'll get that velocity using less powder in the 35 Whelen than you will with the same weight bullet in a 30/06.

I still have some 200 grain Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets in my 30/06 that is the same weight and stock dimensions of my 35 Whelen that I hunt with using 200 grain TTSX loads. I get higher velocities out of the 35 Whelen, but that is just as likely to have a lot to do with jacket materiel, etc (although those round nosed Bitterroots can be seated further out increasing case capacity). The difference in perceived recoil between the two is not apparent to me from the bench. Although I get higher velocities, I don't use all that much more powder to get there. I'm not loading to the maxim in my short barrelled Whelen, but I'm still getting a little bit north of 2800 fps at the muzzle. Good enough for everything around here.

If you want the most velocity achievable with a 200 grain bullet given the same barrel length, you'll do better with a 35 caliber barrel versus a 30 caliber barrel. If you want less recoil for the same muzzle velocity with a 200 grain bullet, the 35 caliber will use less of the same powder to get there due to barrel expansion ratio.

The animals hit in the right place with either bullet at reasonable velocities regardless of the caliber of the bullet are not going to feel any difference.

 

[Fox]

In the real world on game, given the same make and model of bullet in the same weight, there will be no identifiable difference when hit in the same spot with either caliber of those bullets.

The 30 caliber 200 grainer will have better sectional density and flatter ballistics. The 35 caliber has a more advantageous expansion ratio getting the same or better ballistics out of less of the same powder; powder weight is one of the factors in recoil energy. If you have a less than maximum velocity in mind and hope to somewhat mitigate recoil, you'll get that velocity using less powder in the 35 Whelen than you will with the same weight bullet in a 30/06.

I still have some 200 grain Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets in my 30/06 that is the same weight and stock dimensions of my 35 Whelen that I hunt with using 200 grain TTSX loads. I get higher velocities out of the 35 Whelen, but that is just as likely to have a lot to do with jacket materiel, etc (although those round nosed Bitterroots can be seated further out increasing case capacity). The difference in perceived recoil between the two is not apparent to me from the bench. Although I get higher velocities, I don't use all that much more powder to get there. I'm not loading to the maxim in my short barrelled Whelen, but I'm still getting a little bit north of 2800 fps at the muzzle. Good enough for everything around here.

If you want the most velocity achievable with a 200 grain bullet given the same barrel length, you'll do better with a 35 caliber barrel versus a 30 caliber barrel. If you want less recoil for the same muzzle velocity with a 200 grain bullet, the 35 caliber will use less of the same powder to get there due to barrel expansion ratio.

The animals hit in the right place with either bullet at reasonable velocities regardless of the caliber of the bullet are not going to feel any difference.

I think in a dangerous game situation the difference in diameter may matter, just more area to transfer energy, with the same bullet profile.

It is only 0.05in difference but this is the same as 0.227 to 0.277, a 220 swift with a heavy bullet vs a 270 with a light bullet at similar velocities you could easily argue the value of that 270 over the 22 cal for hunting big game.

Just writing it down that diameter difference seems so small but it can make a lot of difference.

45 ACP vs 40 S&W would be similar too, which transfers power faster.

 

[geologist]

For DG IMHO higher sectional density and a premium bullet count.