Will AR15 become NON RESTRICTED??

[blaxsun]

I'm not suggesting it, I'm stating it. You can buy them at a few Canadian dealers. And you can also buy the XCR pistols. Like anything else, the only part of an XCR pistol that is registered is the lower receiver. You can legally buy an XCR pistol and legally sell your upper to anyone you wish, without a license being necessary as the upper is not a registered or regulated part of the rifle in an of itself. A pistol upper will fit on a non restricted lower perfectly and, voila, you have pocket rifle that started out a a non restricted.

And you would be wrong. The minute you put a restricted-length barrel on a non-restricted receiver, you automatically create an unregistered restricted firearm. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have 30 days to "swap back and forth".

If you're caught shooting it in the woods, it would be confiscated and you'd find yourself in a fairly sizeable legal predicament (possession of an unregistered firearm, no ATT, shooting in an unauthorized area and probably some storage and transport infractions to add insult to injury).

I appreciate that you're trying to help, but you're offering poor advice (both legal and otherwise) - and you'd be well-advised to steer clear of offering your "expertise" in areas that you're clearly unfamiliar with. I'd hate to see someone charged and/or lose their firearms because they followed your misguided interpretation.

This is the actual wording.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-201/page-3.html#docCont

4. (1) Subject to section 5, the Registrar shall attach to a registration certificate that is issued in respect of a firearm the condition that the holder of the certificate shall advise the Registrar, within 30 days after the modification, of
(a) any modification to the firearm that results in a change of class of the firearm;
(b) in the case of a firearm registered as a frame or receiver only, any modification that makes it capable of discharging ammunition;
(c) any modification to an altered automatic firearm; and
(d) any modification that results in the firearm ceasing to be a firearm.
(2) Subject to section 5, the Registrar shall attach to a registration certificate that is issued in respect of a firearm the condition that when the type, action, calibre or gauge of the firearm is modified, the holder of the certificate shall advise the Registrar of the modification,
(a) if the modification is intended to be permanent, within 30 days after the modification; and
(b)if the modification is not intended to be permanent but still exists 30 days after it is made, without delay after that period.

 

[enefgee]

People try to use that "30 day thing" in all sorts of ways, but the reality is that you have 30 days to notify - it doesn't mean, nor does it say, that the status hasn't changed immediately. Think of those 30 days as "non-shooting, stored in your safe, properly locked up, days". The status has changed as of the modification date, and any attempt to use the firearm in it's altered state (new classification) without the correct paperwork will cost you - time, money and possibly your freedom.

 

[blaxsun]

People try to use that "30 day thing" in all sorts of ways, but the reality is that you have 30 days to notify - it doesn't mean, nor does it say, that the status hasn't changed immediately. Think of those 30 days as "non-shooting, stored in your safe, properly locked up, days". The status has changed as of the modification date, and any attempt to use the firearm in it's altered state (new classification) without the correct paperwork will cost you - time, money and possibly your freedom.

Exactly.

 

[Xman]

And you would be wrong. The minute you put a restricted-length barrel on a non-restricted receiver, you automatically create an unregistered restricted firearm. Contrary to popular belief, you don't have 30 days to "swap back and forth".

If you're caught shooting it in the woods, it would be confiscated and you'd find yourself in a fairly sizeable legal predicament (possession of an unregistered firearm, no ATT, shooting in an unauthorized area and probably some storage and transport infractions to add insult to injury).

I appreciate that you're trying to help, but you're offering poor advice (both legal and otherwise) - and you'd be well-advised to steer clear of offering your "expertise" in areas that you're clearly unfamiliar with. I'd hate to see someone charged and/or lose their firearms because they followed your misguided interpretation.

This is the actual wording.

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-201/page-3.html#docCont

You misunderstood my post. I am not saying that it would be legal to assemble the short upper and the non restricted lower and go shooting without notifying the CFC. I'm just saying that the argument that if the AR was non restricted people would do that same thing, is not valid because you can do it with other nonrestrictive platforms. There is no valid argument as to why th AR should be restricted when other platforms can be NR.

Read my posts again.

 

[blaxsun]

You misunderstood my post. I am not saying that it would be legal to assemble the short upper and the non restricted lower and go shooting without notifying the CFC. I'm just saying that the argument that if the AR was non restricted people would do that same thing, is not valid because you can do it with other nonrestrictive platforms. There is no valid argument as to why th AR should be restricted when other platforms can be NR.

Read my posts again.

Re-read your own post.

Yeah, but are you suggesting that I can buy an NR XCR then get a 10" QC barrel for it online without a license, then just pop it on, and the rifle is still NR ?

I'm not suggesting it, I'm stating it.

You didn't mention anything about it being illegal, either - and your post could be misconstrued (hence my clarification). The valid argument is that the AR15 is restricted regardless of barrel length and that the ACR, Tavor, XCR, (etc.) are not. None of these firearms existed when the firearms laws were introduced. The Tavor particularly so, since it's both non-restricted and a bullpup.

 

[Xman]

Re-read your own post.



You didn't mention anything about it being illegal, either - and your post could be misconstrued (hence my clarification). The valid argument is that the AR15 is restricted regardless of barrel length and that the ACR, Tavor, XCR, (etc.) are not. None of these firearms existed when the firearms laws were introduced. The Tavor particularly so, since it's both non-restricted and a bullpup.

What I'm saying is this:

If you have a NR rifle and acquire a restricted upper or a restricted barrel that would fit on that rifle, it wouldn't change the status of your NR rifle. You now have the ability (albeit illegal) to turn that NR rifle into something that is a pocket rifle, really... a subcompact carbine. Your original NR platform stays NR in the system, so to speak, but you can make it into a foot long rifle (illegally) by simply carrying a different upper in your backpack. It's not illegal to have an upper with you and it's not illegal to have a NR rifle with you. It's illegal to mate the two without the proper authorizations, ATTs, etc. but just having a short upper does not change the status of your NR rifle.

The argument was that the government doesn't make ARs NR because people would have the ability to buy a NR AR and a shorter, restricted upper and (illegally) make the NR AR into a restricted, short one whenever they wanted. Maybe to rob a bank, or whatever.

My counter argument is that we already have that ability with other platform and it's not a good, logical, valid reason to not derestrict the AR. The focus shouldn't be on what people could do. We all could do terrible things if we wanted. People should be innocent until proven guilty. All women are equipped to be prostitutes if they chose to be...Everything hinges on choice, not ability.

And I didn't mention anything about it being illegal because the whole argument was based on the assumption that people would illegally change the longer upper with a short one, hence the government not wanting to give the people the ability to break the law. The whole argument WAS about the government fearing that the people would break the law.

 

[andrew3081]

What I'm saying is this:

If you have a NR rifle and acquire a restricted upper or a restricted barrel that would fit on that rifle, it wouldn't change the status of your NR rifle. You now have the ability (albeit illegal) to turn that NR rifle into something that is a pocket rifle, really... a subcompact carbine. Your original NR platform stays NR in the system, so to speak, but you can make it into a foot long rifle (illegally) by simply carrying a different upper in your backpack. It's not illegal to have an upper with you and it's not illegal to have a NR rifle with you. It's illegal to mate the two without the proper authorizations, ATTs, etc. but just having a short upper does not change the status of your NR rifle.

The argument was that the government doesn't make ARs NR because people would have the ability to buy a NR AR and a shorter, restricted upper and (illegally) make the NR AR into a restricted, short one whenever they wanted. Maybe to rob a bank, or whatever.

My counter argument is that we already have that ability with other platform and it's not a good, logical, valid reason to not derestrict the AR. The focus shouldn't be on what people could do. We all could do terrible things if we wanted. People should be innocent until proven guilty. All women are equipped to be prostitutes if they chose to be...Everything hinges on choice, not ability.

To be honest, it does not matter what your intentions are...if the police catch you with the restricted receiver in your backpack and you the non restricted rifle in your hand, it does not stop the police from arresting you and charging you. You will be the one that will be spending tons of $ to defend yourself.
It is not illegal to carry the restricted rifle in your backpack, but the question is...why would you be carrying one in the first place?

Carrying any type of rifle in the public in any city or mid size town will get the attention from the police.

 

[blaxsun]

My counter argument is that we already have that ability with other platform and it's not a good, logical, valid reason to not derestrict the AR.

I think this is a good argument to get the XCR permanently restricted... Then we could finally have that apples-to-apples comparison with the AR platform. You know, both being restricted.

It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to play with fire with respect to the XCR. It's not a coincidence that Wolverine only imports a single NR version...

 

[can14]

Save yourself jail time and the expense of a lawyer. Buy a swiss rifle. No one will help you financially if you are charged trying to make a point in law. The gun community has never supported anyone financially who has taken on the government. It costs thousands of dollars for the lawyer and many hundreds of hours of legal research to make a good case. I have been to court over firearms and won. But the amount of money the firearms community gave wouldn't buy a family of four lunch at Micky D's!!!!!!!!! The AR15 will stay restricted, as it has been for years. Joe Clark Prime Minister of Canada made it non-restricted and the Liberal's put it back to being restricted. Prime Minister Harper is the only one who can do it! The PM can fire anyone who doesn't carry out his order's. Joe knew this!!!

 

[Xman]

I think this is a good argument to get the XCR permanently restricted... Then we could finally have that apples-to-apples comparison with the AR platform. You know, both being restricted.

It never ceases to amaze me how people continue to play with fire with respect to the XCR. It's not a coincidence that Wolverine only imports a single NR version...

Wolverine imports both NR and R versions. And you think that anything we can talk about on here hasn't been debated at CFC? I'm not scared of my government. Not of the current one at least. The government should work for the people not the other way around and we shouldn't have to lurk in a back alley to have a debate and a conversation, for fear that we might give the government ideas.

That's a ridiculous concept!

And if they're going to restrict something for fear that you can shorten the barrel and run illegal, they'll have to ban saws and any lathes or metal working tools.

 

[blaxsun]

Wolverine imports both NR and R versions. And you think that anything we can talk about on here hasn't been debated at CFC? I'm not scared of my government. Not of the current one at least. The government should work for the people not the other way around and we shouldn't have to lurk in a back alley to have a debate and a conversation, for fear that we might give the government ideas.

Uh, no - they don't. You really need to get your facts straight... They carry the XCR-L (non-restricted) and XCR-L pistol (restricted). Two different firearms, not unlike a Swiss Arms Black Special and Swiss Arms CQB.

 

[enefgee]

In a country like ours you can do anything you want, even kill people - if you're willing to pay the price.

 

[Xman]

Uh, no - they don't. You really need to get your facts straight... They carry the XCR-L (non-restricted) and XCR-L pistol (restricted). Two different firearms, not unlike a Swiss Arms Black Special and Swiss Arms CQB.

You're one of those guys who always tells everyone what they need to do and always want to have the last word on everything, even if they have to twist words and craftily push the conversation in a different direction, if only to make a hazy point.

I said that Wolverine sells restricted and non restricted xcrs. The restricted IS the pistol and the pistol upper fits on the non restricted rifle lower. Walk all around the point of what I'm trying to say if that's what you like to do on Saturdays but, for the fifth time, the argument that you could do this with the ARs holds no water when you could do it with XCRs, Tavors, hell even CZ858 where you can put a VZ58 barrel on it, even if not as easily as you would on a XCR, Tavor or AR.

My response, to begin with, was to the guy that was saying that this is the reason ARs are restricted. I was trying to show him that if that was the reason, the other platforms would be restricted only as well.

Then you jumped in and tried to school me on morpho-syntax, reading comprehension and God knows what else you think you excel at. Then you did a search for other posts of mine and started showing off in all the threads I post in, because you're on the debate team...

 

[Leonidas]

Then you jumped in and tried to school me on morpho-syntax, reading comprehension and God knows what else you think you excel at. Then you did a search for other posts of mine and started showing off in all the threads I post in, because you're on the debate team...

LOL! Well said.

 

[blaxsun]

Yeah, but are you suggesting that I can buy an NR XCR then get a 10" QC barrel for it online without a license, then just pop it on, and the rifle is still NR?

I'm not suggesting it, I'm stating it.

The question was if the rifle would still be NR, and no - it wouldn't. The law is quite clear on this: the minute you alter a firearm to change it's classification that firearm needs be re-verified and either re/de-registered.

My response, to begin with, was to the guy that was saying that this is the reason ARs are restricted. I was trying to show him that if that was the reason, the other platforms would be restricted only as well.

And I don't disagree with your argument. However, the XCR is (I believe) the only black rifle outside of the AR where the lower is in fact the registered component. It's not applicable to the FS2000, PS90 or Tavor, and the upper is the registered component in the Swiss Arms and ACR.

 

[IMR4320]

I know that Harper & co. are by far our best choice but I sadly but firmly believe that they will do nothing further for us. They've satisfied the "farmers and duck hunters" (their words not mine) with the dismantling of the LGR and I expect that they will do not one thing more to help gun owners out. Call me cynical but I believe that they feel they have little to gain by going any further to help us out, and more to lose by upsetting the ignorant masses who know nothing about guns with further loosening of restrictions. The whole LGR dismantling was nothing more than kowtowing to rural voters while doing absolutely zero for restricted black rifle and handgun owners. Individual MPs might kiss our collective asses and pretend to support us but I really think we'll see nothing more from this bunch in Ottawa. I don't mean to be so negative (and I will continue to vote Conservative because any alternative from a gun owner's standpoint is way worse) but the best we can hope for is no further restrictions. And that's just sad.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I also think they will do us no more favours. We must not forget that under Kim Campbell ( a tory) further gun restrictions in early 90' were imposed on us so I'd like to be hopefull they would do more for us but I don't think so.

 

[lone-wolf]

I just emailed my liberal MP asking if AR15s will ever be non-restricted so I can hunt coyotes with them.

 

[enefgee]

We must not forget that under Kim Campbell ( a tory) further gun restrictions in early 90' were imposed on us so I'd like to be hopefull they would do more for us but I don't think so.

Avril Phaedra (Kim) Campbell was a Tory like I'm transgendered (not even a little). She was/is also a 2 faced b*tch - she carried a 38 in her purse, when her detail asked why she told them it was because they couldn't be with her all the time, like when she was in bed or on the toilet (really).

 

[blaxsun]

I just emailed my liberal MP asking if AR15s will ever be non-restricted so I can hunt coyotes with them.

Here's hoping.

 

[Conte]

Oh damn, this topic is still raging, and somewhat from a point I made, damn I've created a monster.

I still stand by some of what I said. I have yet to see a <18.7" XCR barrel for sale without a receiver on any of the online sponsors.
All this talk of the ways you can make it happen seems silly, as it would be illegal, and an 858 and a hacksaw would be much cheaper.

I honestly cannot relate the the hunters, I'm a pure target shooter, who only ever shoots at the range. I have no excuse not to have an R license and an ATT.
I already have both, as soon as I get my AR it's off to the range I go. My range is very easy going, I usually have the whole place to myself. The only time the whole R Rating bothers me is when I wish I could take my pistol to the pit and blow up fruit or something.