Will legendary Avro Arrow make Lazarus-like return?
- Thread starter JRW (QOR)
- Start date
I agree. One of the aircraft closest to the Arrow in size? The French Mirage IV nuclear bomber.
I suppose we could always strap a couple of sidewinders to a Learjet now that Bombardier owns them?
Here is an interesting quote about the Mirage IV (which was designed in the late 50's), and exactly the same would apply to the Arrow.
Initially, the basic attack flight profile was "high-high-high" at a speed of Mach 1.85, engaging targets up to a maximum radius of 3,500*km (2,175*mi). In the late 1960s, when the threat of surface-to-air missile defences made high-altitude flight too hazardous, the Mirage IVA was modified for low-altitude penetration. Flying low, the maximum attack speed was reduced to 1,100*km/h (680*mph) and the combat radius was also decreased.
Tell me, how many Canadian companies currently have an off the shelf radar, fire control system, auto pilot, "glass cockpit" instruments, navigation system, and other types of avionics, that are currently available, and fit into a 30 year old Soviet-era airframe? Will those components work with those of our NATO allies? Russian subcontractors make Russian spec components for a Russian aircraft, integrating NATO standard parts won't be that easy to do.
It will cost more, and will be a uniquely Canadian model, meaning, you have to learn all the maintenance lessons over again. You won't be able to ask the Russians how to de-snag the aircraft, because the 65 you bought are completely different, they will have new and exciting faults that you have to figure out all on your own. Changing every single connector, data bus, computer, instruments, radar and fire control system.
Not to mention, NATO standard fuels and fluids. Will Russian gaskets work well with our fluids? or will they eat away the rubber and cause leaks?
Also, the "Flanker" series is 30 years old, much like the F-15, and it is quite big, so you would have to change out all the hangars, change the arctic airfields, and other infrastructure changes.
Most important however, is you are buying an aircraft that comes from the only country that threatens our sovereignty. Do you really want your spare parts to have to come through Moscow?
I'm sorry, but where is that info coming from?
Well, the Cold War threatened to come pretty hot there quite a few times.... and our entire Army was rolling on "Canadian-made" wheels which were made ONE HOUR by Tank from the Soviet Bloc.
Still some of that stuff out there, except that now we have to send bagfuls of expensive EUROS to Steyr to pay for the parts to keep them running. Originally, Steyr-Daimler-Puch dealt in Schillings.
The only thing Canadian on the things was the badge on the front end..... unless that was made in Austria as well.
As a stop-gap, perhaps buy bare airframes for the MiG-29, stuff our own engines into them. THEN start work on Arrow II.
We can't be everybody else's branch-plant FOREVER.
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"We're only 30 million...." the nay-sayers will bleat.
Thirty-FOUR million. We're only 30 million if you don't count all those illegals in TO and Vancouver and all the phony refugees that have been ordered deported that the police can't find.
In War 2, we were FOURTEEN million..... and a million of those were in the Forces. Another million were on the land, being that the average farm was about a quarter the size of a modern one.
LOOK AT WHAT CANADA MADE: a million Number 4s, another million Stens, enough Brens to outfit Canada, the UK and China with a few left over for the rest of the Commonwealth, 4,00,000,000 rounds of .303 alone: enough that we are still shooting the stuff off. That doesn't even go to ships, aircraft (3000 Lancasters and a heap of Mosquitoes, plus Boleys and a pile of others), installations, artillery, arty ammo and everything else, PLUS feeding and clothing and transporting the men there AND back AND feeding Britain.
ALL that.... on less than HALF the population we have now.
Maybe people should stop whinging and have a bit of PRIDE.
Canadians did it once, they can do it again.
Not like it's something new, you know.
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Still some of that stuff out there, except that now we have to send bagfuls of expensive EUROS to Steyr to pay for the parts to keep them running. Originally, Steyr-Daimler-Puch dealt in Schillings.
The only thing Canadian on the things was the badge on the front end..... unless that was made in Austria as well.
As a stop-gap, perhaps buy bare airframes for the MiG-29, stuff our own engines into them. THEN start work on Arrow II.
We can't be everybody else's branch-plant FOREVER.
..................................................................................................................
"We're only 30 million...." the nay-sayers will bleat.
Thirty-FOUR million. We're only 30 million if you don't count all those illegals in TO and Vancouver and all the phony refugees that have been ordered deported that the police can't find.
In War 2, we were FOURTEEN million..... and a million of those were in the Forces. Another million were on the land, being that the average farm was about a quarter the size of a modern one.
LOOK AT WHAT CANADA MADE: a million Number 4s, another million Stens, enough Brens to outfit Canada, the UK and China with a few left over for the rest of the Commonwealth, 4,00,000,000 rounds of .303 alone: enough that we are still shooting the stuff off. That doesn't even go to ships, aircraft (3000 Lancasters and a heap of Mosquitoes, plus Boleys and a pile of others), installations, artillery, arty ammo and everything else, PLUS feeding and clothing and transporting the men there AND back AND feeding Britain.
ALL that.... on less than HALF the population we have now.
Maybe people should stop whinging and have a bit of PRIDE.
Canadians did it once, they can do it again.
Not like it's something new, you know.
.
Who said anything about all Canadian components? The vast number of western aircraft flying today, civilian and military, have parts from thousands of different suppliers. Do you believe that a manufacturer makes every single nut, bolt, rivet, every casting, refines every pound of aluminum, refines and blends all the oils and lubricants, do they make all their own electronics, processors, circuit boards? Even some Russian commercial jets are using western engines.
As for everything else you mention. It's all in the specs. Compatibility of gaskets? Remember the little bit about specs?
Why shouldn't spare parts come through Moscow? What's the difference between that and the vast majority of our goods coming from China? Do you actually think this country, or military, could survive without goods from China, Japan, Korea?
I never said anything about a 30 year old Flanker design. The Sukhoi T-50 is not quite competitive with the F-35, but a wee bit better than the Arrow.
The world has changed in a very big way. If you work on a few multi billion dollar projects, and you will find a whole different world out there. It's a whole lot more interconnected than you could imagine.
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The Germans had a mixed bag of Leopard A1s and the first A2s at CFB Shilo.
I had a friend in the Bundeswehr and he took me out there one day to see the new A2, even though such was strengstens verboten. He was a Gefreiter and the German Army, as ours, was scared spitless of Corporals.
They had an A1 in a HEATED garage, about 50 degrees F, with the batteries hooked up to a charger, two more sets of batteries on a trolley beside it. Drill was to start the tank INDOORS in the morning and run it up until the engine coolant was almost up to temp, then move that tank outside and use it..... and BOTH sets of fully-charged spare batteries.... to start the other tanks, one by one. Getting enough tanks running for an exercise was an exercise in itself, which is why they did VERY little winter training.
As to the A2, there were only 5 in the world at that time. All 5 had been to Arizona for desert testing, then they came to Shilo for Winter exercises. They brought all 5 because that way they could have Troop exercises and a spare tank. NOT ONCE did they get all 5 A2s running on the same day. The record was 3. They never did get their cold-weather testing, but they went ahead and produced the thing anyway.
They still have not learned the lessons that were taught to them so expensively by General Winter.
I was there.
Good enough?
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I had a friend in the Bundeswehr and he took me out there one day to see the new A2, even though such was strengstens verboten. He was a Gefreiter and the German Army, as ours, was scared spitless of Corporals.
They had an A1 in a HEATED garage, about 50 degrees F, with the batteries hooked up to a charger, two more sets of batteries on a trolley beside it. Drill was to start the tank INDOORS in the morning and run it up until the engine coolant was almost up to temp, then move that tank outside and use it..... and BOTH sets of fully-charged spare batteries.... to start the other tanks, one by one. Getting enough tanks running for an exercise was an exercise in itself, which is why they did VERY little winter training.
As to the A2, there were only 5 in the world at that time. All 5 had been to Arizona for desert testing, then they came to Shilo for Winter exercises. They brought all 5 because that way they could have Troop exercises and a spare tank. NOT ONCE did they get all 5 A2s running on the same day. The record was 3. They never did get their cold-weather testing, but they went ahead and produced the thing anyway.
They still have not learned the lessons that were taught to them so expensively by General Winter.
I was there.
Good enough?
.
What says the electronics systems that you chose, fit in the aircraft? They were designed for a specific Russian system, putting in a Western system isn't as easy as you are making it out to be.
I am well aware that subcontractors make millions of different components all over the world and that a military aircraft is a system of systems,but you can't just toss whatever you want into them and hope it all comes out correctly. Changing all the systems that need to be changed to make the aircraft compatible with NATO would cost far too much money, and may not even work. You have very limited room to put all those boxes in, and you whittle down the choices pretty quick when you add the space limitations.
You could make your own avionics suite however, based on the space limitations of the aircraft you chose to use, but the cost for the few systems that would be required would be immense.
The Sukhoi T-50 is not even operational, and according to the Russians, will not be ready for export until 2025.
The difference, with regards to goods, is yes, many things come from China. Not a single Canadian military product, however, comes from China, for a very good reason. Same with Russia, purchasing their fighter and using their parts means they can turn off the flow of parts. More importantly, do you think Russia would sell us a plane to intercept their bombers over the arctic?
Also, Japan and Korea are seen as allies, or at the very least neutral parties.
That truly is a good looking aircraft.
Maybe we should buy stripped versions and put our own electronics and radar on them?
(not gonna happen)
The brain drain is phucking obvious when we can't even get a 2012 loonie/toonie to work in a phucking vending machine or at the car wash , hey while we are at it why not a break top Webley in 40 S&W or a 338 lapua Ross Rifle ?
The Arrow books I've read have other things to say. At one point near the cancellation, the Americans offered to pay to equip the RCAF with squadrons of Arrows and Dief still scrapped them.
The whole thing is incredibly sad.
If I was making the decisions now...I'd go ahead with building a new Canadian made Arrow II aircraft, using the latest in Canadian technology.
Could it be more expensive than the F35? It'd be made at Bristol Aerospace in Winnipeg. (if it still exists?)
And, I'd buy some of those reasonably priced, off the shelf Embraer Super Tucanos for close air support for our guys.
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com/english/content/combat/tucano_origin.asp
But, we know how this goes right? Harper announces a new Canadian fighter, and Justin Shiny Pony takes over the Liberals and makes it his life mission to scuttle it...
Just like Chretien did with the helicopters. There are enough lefties, tree huggers and hippies in this country to go for it too. I hate politics...
Yes, it was Mulroney. Yet another of the many reasons I still despise him.
Smellie- I worked in Northern Alberta and the Arctic in the winter. Diesels were left running 24 hours a day as if you shut them down there was no way they'd start again. (Yes, being from MB I'm sure you know this. )
I did see Cats with gas engines on the side of them used to get the diesel running in the cold.
So how did the Russians get around that with their equipment?
Diesel fuel gels...
)I did see Cats with gas engines on the side of them used to get the diesel running in the cold.
So how did the Russians get around that with their equipment?
Diesel fuel gels...
You refine diesel lighter, removing the heavy parafins. Think parafin wax. The fuel doesn't actually gell, it is the parafin waxes that solidify, yet lighter hydrocarbons still are liquid. When you look at fuel where some of the waxes have solidified, it looks a bit like a slushie
You can also heat the diesel fuel tanks and fuel lines. Very common.
When working with heavy fuel oils (bunker), it needs to be heated to flow, even in the tropics. All the fuel lines are heat traced, either electrical, hot water or steam, and fuel tanks (day tanks) are even heated with waste heat from the engines.
And our F-35s would be available when?
The overall products are not made in China, however MANY components within just about every product come from the East. Even Japan has moved a substantial amount of their production to China. These days it is impossible to actually tell where the vast number of smaller components within a product come from, but a very large portion come from China.
Traceability if you only want western made parts is impossible for small items. It is even difficult for large, fully manufactured items. A few years ago, the entire aviation industry was flooded with fake major parts, caused a few crashes too. Even Airforce One had fake parts in it.
Military procurement still generally goes to the lowest bidder, right? So to keep costs down, many components within those products, especially electronics, come from the east. What matters is the quality, not where it's made.
I've never said it could happen, but it is actually feasible, and far less complex than you believe. All countries in the world "share" (steal) basic designs, so there is remarkable generality similarity between systems around the world. Everyone builds on work done by others, wonder why the T-50 bears a striking resemblance to the F-35? Same goes for smaller systems too.
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Testing on a reduced version is ongoing:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=15535
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh-4Rnmjark
and the model was lost, sort of like the last one that supposedly took off hahaha
superdiver
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it would probably be a new plane that shares the same name the avro arow or the radar signature would be huge with the shape of the original. but if the want a fast intersepeter with new tech it would be lighter and faster. but it is just not feasible. as for the stealth characteristics stealth technology is useless now the russains redesigned their old school analog radar and it can unscramble the back ground interference the stealth fighter making them visible on radar . so Canada building its own multi roll fighter is not a bad idea as well it will create jobs and keep our money in Canada these are my thoughts for and against this project
