Will legendary Avro Arrow make Lazarus-like return?

After the Liberals raised holy Hell with the Diefenbaker government.

Don't forget that part.

Doesn't matter if it helps Canada or not, if the Liberals can use it either way, it will get used.

That includes sacrificing an entire class of citizens to hysteria in order to stay in power.... C-68.

And it includes sacrificing an entire industry to win an election.

They can NOT be allowed to govern this country again.
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Well lets see the last US made fighter jet that had the same performance as the AV roe Arrow was the F15 EAGLE . You have to remember that the Arrow was so far ahead of the curve that much of the systems that are what many call 50 yr oold technology are in fact used in todays front line fighters ,fly by wire ,the AIM 2 air to air missiles . and quite alot more Given the new technologies in avionics ,air frame construction and engine design it is quite possible to produce a front line fighter that exceeds the F35 in all areas of performance Including the stealth capabilities .Because stealh has nothing to do with airframe design it has everything to do with materails .
 
R&D, Industry, Air Weapons and other top experts should look into this. Maybe it has merit.
After 1 century the Mauser 98 action still rules!
Besides our jobs are disappearing quickly, we need to bring back industry. Canada should produce a top fighter and sell them around the world. Nuff said.
 
KNOWLEDGE COSTS MONEY.... but it ALWAYS pays off.

When Dr. Grunow was handed the job of making the MG-42 (still in production today in Serbia, Germany, Iran, Norway and possibly a few others) he had to set up an entire factory to make the FIRST one. After that they were $25 apiece, cheap enough that the Americans were fooled into thinking that Germany was on her last legs, turning out junk. Then they tried to copy it..... and it took 20 years just to get the metal-forming technology down right because they had to re-develop the entire technology from scratch. Hiring Dr. Grunow would have given them that technology for the price of a monthly paycheque.

When the Arrow design team was hired South, they took with them ALL of this NEW TECHNOLOGY which had been developed (at our expense) for the Arrow. They didn't take the blueprints because those had been shredded or burned. They took the technology in their HEADS, thus saving the American aerospace industry BILLIONS in research and development costs (which we had bought and paid for) for PROVEN SOLUTIONS to the problems which had them butting their heads up against walls. It was like manna from Heaven..... and I am quite sure that, if you know what to look for, you will find "Arrow" solutions to engineering problems in every post-1964 American military A/C design.

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But, when you think of it, ONE PERCENT of the contract for the F-35 would build us a pretty darned good ground-attack force if you based it on the Mosquito.

When talking about gasoline-powered combat aircraft, one point that everybody misses is fuel quality. We have FAR better A/C fuels these days than they had in War 2. A monster engine such as the Merlin could run far higher compression..... and put out far more horsepower..... with modern fuels than it could with the fuels of 70 years ago....... when the Mossie was the hottest thing in the low-level attack business. And it's stealthy as hell, too, even without modern coatings.

Possibly something to think about.

And THEN start design work on Arrow II..... first flight 2020...... I might even live to see it.

It would be worth seeing, too.
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Hmmm....carbon fibre skin, reinforced wings (the A380 has carbon fibre wings) Bombardier souped up Challenger type engines (or high compression piston), plus the CF-18 next gen model.

How many billions less than the F-35? Ground attack speciaty, anti-helicopter at maybe a low cost, interceptor ability to deal with everybody else, except maybe those friends of ours flying F-35's.

Made in Canada for export (how many would fit in a Galaxy?).
 
Wouldn't even need carbon-fibre skin. The original plywood is rather on the stealthy side, absorbs radar nicely. The problem with it was the GLUE they were using: casein glue, milk-based: wonderful food for certain bacteria and insects. Simply substituting an epoxy glue would give you an airframe and wing assembly which could be repaired with a chainsaw and a pot of glue, have the bird back in the air an hour after it landed with ground-fire damage.
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Wouldn't even need carbon-fibre skin. The original plywood is rather on the stealthy side, absorbs radar nicely. The problem with it was the GLUE they were using: casein glue, milk-based: wonderful food for certain bacteria and insects. Simply substituting an epoxy glue would give you an airframe and wing assembly which could be repaired with a chainsaw and a pot of glue, have the bird back in the air an hour after it landed with ground-fire damage.
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well, the ww2 legion memeber i spoke with years back loved and hated the mossie cause it was a beautiful plane to fly and a right ##### to fix battle damage on. Much prefered working on metal structure and skin, as it was far simpler to repair, and stayed repaired. Cutting out splintered sections was a pain, and if a spar took a hit the assembly was a write off. Composites would be lighter, stronger and more damage resistant. Find a bunch of skyraiders, they'd do the same thing, and carry a bigger payload doing it.
 
They did not have modern epoxy glues at that time.

Does anyone have a cost-per-square-foot value on carbon-fibre sheeting, thick enougn to build a Mossie out of?

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They did not have modern epoxy glues at that time.

Does anyone have a cost-per-square-foot value on carbon-fibre sheeting, thick enougn to build a Mossie out of?

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Well, no, that's why they are called modern.

But there were two other epoxy-based adhesives in common use during WW2, on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean - Aerolite and Redux -

Aerolite - When World War II broke out, Morris Motors used Aerolite and Aero Research's strip heating process to assemble Airspeed Horsa gliders, as did de Havilland on its Mosquito, as well as on other aircraft and also naval launches and patrol boats.

Redux - The first formulation available was Redux Liquid E/Formvar, comprising a phenolic liquid (Redux Liquid E) and a PVF powder (Formvar), and after its initial non-aviation related application of bonding clutch plates on Churchill and Cromwell tanks, it was used by de Havilland from 1943 to the early 1960s, on, among other aircraft, the Hornet, the Comet and the derived Nimrod, and the Dove, Heron and Trident. It was also used by Vickers on the Viking and by Chance Vought on the F7U Cutlass.

Typically, Redux would be used to affix stiffening stringers and doublers to wing and fuselage panels, the resulting panel being both stronger and lighter than a riveted structure. In the case of the Hornet it was used to join the aluminium lower-wing skin to the wooden upper wing structure, and in the fabrication of the aluminium/wood main wing spar, both forms of composite construction made possible by the advent of Redux.

Cascamite - the lactose-based casein resin adhesive, was not the only one used on the Mosquito.

tac
 
As much as I would love to see this (I worked for AV ROE for a bit) it won't happen..

These sound like the discussions over beer (over a lot of beer) there are no working plans there are no planes and the company mentioned doesn't seem to exist I can't find a website or anything else.. So I'm not sure how they could have priced this since they don't have plans. it would need to be redeveloped from the ground up..
 
I say revive the "Mosquito"...it was a fighter/bomber...and it should be cheap to produce...it's made out of plywood...!
 
"We" can do it.

"We" could design it.

"We" should build it.

Who the f*ck is "we"?!?!

What Canadian company or companies would you all suggest bet their financial future on reviving a 60-year old unproven and virtually untested design, from scratch, based on a collection of drawings and memories? As is, when an aviation company launches a new platform, they essentially risk insolvency. And they do so with the benefit of potential customers, years of design and testing and millions of dollars of investment. Yet it's still a gamble.

Canada does not have a company that builds fighters. Canada does not have a group of companies that builds the entire list of components required to build a fighter. Patriotic dreams are wonderful but let's be serious: who will build it, risking complete corporate failure?

The F35 was rolled out by an established aviation company and it's a financial mess. Yet some people think some yet-unnamed company with zero experience in fighter design, development and production could start from scratch, build a limited number of aircraft, build them quickly and for less? Sorry, but I have my doubts. It would be the Briklin of the fighter world...if one was ever produced!
 
Umm. That would be ridiculous.
We can't ressurect and update 1950s technology and put it in the modern combat arena.

We are 60 years out of date on this issue. It would take a monumental effort (read as $$$), and massive R&D program to produce a new fighter jet in Canada. Countries with far greater resources than ours have stumbled trying to do this, even when they stayed in the game for the last half century.

The only thing the Avro Arrow has in common with modern fighters, is that they both fly.

Kirk

Countries with less resources than Canada have successfully built world class fighters. Sweden for instance. But you are right that Canada couldn't do it at this stage in the game.
 
Just like Russia did with the T-34 tank, we could do it with a scaled down, mini version
of the Arrow. No bigger than a Lear Jet, twin Williams engines and armed with a single
gunpod using .408 Chey Tac ammo. Giver stealth coating and for good measure on
special runs, place a small missile in the bomb/gun bay tipped with a Neutron warhead.

We could put a lot of these little buggers out there and overwhelm foes Russian style.
We could call it the Locust Arrow. Bombardier could do it.
Piss on the UN! :mad:
 
The biggest problem is that Avro had the best design team in the Western world. When the Arrow program "crashed", that entire team was EXPORTED to the USA.

The Canadian aerospace industry, apart from relatively minor affairs, has remmained essentially a BRANCH PLANT of Rockwelldouglasgeneraldynamicsboeinglockheedbell ever since.

That KIND of design team, without a challenge, would be near-impossible to reassemble.

SO.......... we start with an updated Mosquito (I checked the prices on Carbon Fibre; it is no longer exorbitant and has a lot to recommend it). The engineering demands from THAT project, after a couple of hundred birds, would be solved.... so the brighter Engineers can get started on Arrow II.

What was LEARNED from the work on Arrow I is now standard-practice, so the Avro would be a part of the NEW Arrow, the Arrow II, as well.

Do as much of the work as possible in Western Canada: we don't need whacking 400% subsidies the way Quebec industries do.

It would take time, it would cost money, but it CAN be done.

And there are lots of other projects which can put people to work. The Germans dropped out of the pan-Nato MBT project because the American proposal cost too much to build: $250,000 per unit. So they brought out the Leopard. A decade later they sold second-hand Leopards to Canada for a megabuck each, replaced them with the Leopard A2. If we had bought Russian tanks, I might be able to understand it. Russian tanks will START in a Canadian Winter; Leopards won't.

Another area where we can design and build OUR OWN..... and have an export product to boot.

Hey, it's better than being Detroit's branch plant forever.

All that's holding us back is that wonderful Canadian inferiority complex, rather a defining part of our distinct culture!

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Countries with less resources than Canada have successfully built world class fighters. Sweden for instance. But you are right that Canada couldn't do it at this stage in the game.

Avro was a large, highly experienced aircraft factory in Malton ON. They had made like 600 CF100 jet fighters for Canada just before they geared up for the Arrow. During WWII they made excellent Lancaster bombers for the war effort. They were on the cutting edge of technology. They had a prototype jetliner called the Avro Jetliner flying...if I remember correctly Howard Hughes was so impressed with it that he bought it. (or tried to)

This factory was demolished long ago. The workers, engineers etc are long gone. The area now could best be described as Little India.

If it was all still there then sure...but it isn't. :(

Believe me, I'd love to see Canada build it's own aircraft. Screw the F35.
 
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