Will legendary Avro Arrow make Lazarus-like return?
- Thread starter JRW (QOR)
- Start date
Why, they haven't all crashed yet, I think there's still a few flying somewhere.
I was surprised that QE2 let Prince Willy pilot a Canadian Sea King on his last visit here. Guess Her Majesty doesn't know about our track record.
We are. There's a company on Vancouver Island that for years was making replacement parts for Beavers. They got the license issues sorted out a little while back and are or will be producing whole newly made Beavers again. INCLUDING the more or less "still born" Turbo Beaver. The piston version was and is a workhorse but mating a turboprop engine to the Beaver turns it into a modern day load and a half carrying Pegasus.
Anyway.... as for the Arrow I'm a big airplane buff. But simply put the Arrow would not have what it takes in today's situations to be the same sort of multi role plane and maneuver the same way that the current crop of fighters can manage. It simply was not made to suit many of the roles that would be required. That idiot that says it was made to suit the ground attack role is smoking fairy dust. It was purely and simply intended to intercept high flying bombers and it's main weapon option for the time was a small yield nuclear missle that was intended to take out a squadron of Russian bombers at a stroke.
At this point if we had gone ahead with them and if we did have any left flying they would be used for long range northern patrols rather than sending them overseas to the hot spots of the world.
While it was a great design for what it was intended to do it's not a close in dogfighter or close in air to ground support plane. And that's more the sort of plane our forces need given the nature of the jobs being done these days by our armed forces.
As much as I'd like to see a modern Canadian made fighter jet it simply isn't in the cards to start out from square one like this. The Arrow airframe would require a huge amount of re-engineering to adapt it to the modern systems. Yet it would be cheaper than trying to re-invent many of the systems that Avro made for it way back then.
Is the F-35 the design for us? For patrolling the empty wastes of the north we still have a need for a second engine for safety reasons. That hasn't changed and it has been a central point in all our fighter design choices since the early post war era. And it's still as valid now as it was then.
Which sort of suggests that if there is a case to be made for the F-35 filling a need for combat hot spots then perhaps out current F18's could be updated and upgraded to carry on filling the need for our continental patrol and intercept duties and simply change a couple of squadrons over to a reduced number of new F-35's for forgien "peace keeping" duties.
Anyway.... as for the Arrow I'm a big airplane buff. But simply put the Arrow would not have what it takes in today's situations to be the same sort of multi role plane and maneuver the same way that the current crop of fighters can manage. It simply was not made to suit many of the roles that would be required. That idiot that says it was made to suit the ground attack role is smoking fairy dust. It was purely and simply intended to intercept high flying bombers and it's main weapon option for the time was a small yield nuclear missle that was intended to take out a squadron of Russian bombers at a stroke.
At this point if we had gone ahead with them and if we did have any left flying they would be used for long range northern patrols rather than sending them overseas to the hot spots of the world.
While it was a great design for what it was intended to do it's not a close in dogfighter or close in air to ground support plane. And that's more the sort of plane our forces need given the nature of the jobs being done these days by our armed forces.
As much as I'd like to see a modern Canadian made fighter jet it simply isn't in the cards to start out from square one like this. The Arrow airframe would require a huge amount of re-engineering to adapt it to the modern systems. Yet it would be cheaper than trying to re-invent many of the systems that Avro made for it way back then.
Is the F-35 the design for us? For patrolling the empty wastes of the north we still have a need for a second engine for safety reasons. That hasn't changed and it has been a central point in all our fighter design choices since the early post war era. And it's still as valid now as it was then.
Which sort of suggests that if there is a case to be made for the F-35 filling a need for combat hot spots then perhaps out current F18's could be updated and upgraded to carry on filling the need for our continental patrol and intercept duties and simply change a couple of squadrons over to a reduced number of new F-35's for forgien "peace keeping" duties.
You can throw all the money, public or private, at a company, but you won't get Avro Jetliners or Avro Arrows unless you assemble an extraordinary team. From what I've read, that's what Avro had: an extraordinarily gifted team, and the leaders of the Arrow design team had been coveted by the US industry for a long time. After it was shut down, they went on to very prominent careers elsewhere.
The Arrow was the first true fly-by-wire a/c except for the experimental X15, which was dropped from the belly of a bomber IIRC. It was projected to make mach 3 and fly to over 100,000 feet. I believe the only jet other than the SR71 to do that was the Mig25 Foxbat, and when it landed after doing that kind of speed, the engines were replaced!
The big players have a different geopolitical role mapped out for little old Canada folks, and that's just the way it is.
The Arrow was the first true fly-by-wire a/c except for the experimental X15, which was dropped from the belly of a bomber IIRC. It was projected to make mach 3 and fly to over 100,000 feet. I believe the only jet other than the SR71 to do that was the Mig25 Foxbat, and when it landed after doing that kind of speed, the engines were replaced!
The big players have a different geopolitical role mapped out for little old Canada folks, and that's just the way it is.
Wow. A new CanadianArrow for the 21st century.
Radar rendering all stealth mode obsolete( big f@#king layoffs at Lockheed and Northrop Grumman).
Big internal load out of lots of fire and forget goodies. You can run but you can't hide! A new Velvet Glove, muhahaevil:.
Smoking along a Mach 2.5+ afterburners in but she ain't pinned, 65,000 feet of Canuck air below your wings.
Royal Canadian Air Force in bright red letters against that pretty white paint, nice little roundel there.
GD yes,......let's do it Canadian built ball busting, look down,.. shoot down,.. splash down, anything that moves in our airspace with hostile intent. As to deploying into third world countries in the future, and the call for close air, I'd say let the one who called the party provide that.
Well the above would be nice, I know the costs would be too much. Saying that, I think you would be very hard pressed to find some Canadians who would'nt feel a little warm and fuzzy thinking about it. Sort of a National lighting rod so to speak to feel very proud to be Canadian.
Hm. From what I understood, one - not only but one - of the reasons the americans demanded the avro destroyed was because the aircraft was two decades ahead of anything they - or the Russians - had or could field. If such were true, then I would suggest that it wouldn't be so hard to update the design to hold up currently. A mach 2.5 plus multi role strike craft, capable of cruising 65,000 feet in the air, designed to handle Canada's environment?
While I agree its farfetched, and I agree that it would never happen given how deep the poison that is the US military infests Canada; I WOULD rather see 70 billion go into a Canadian grown and built craft than half that into a foreign bird - Keep our money, resources, brains and material at home. But, as stated, a sad pipe dream that wont materialize.
While I agree its farfetched, and I agree that it would never happen given how deep the poison that is the US military infests Canada; I WOULD rather see 70 billion go into a Canadian grown and built craft than half that into a foreign bird - Keep our money, resources, brains and material at home. But, as stated, a sad pipe dream that wont materialize.
Yes, one of the reasons the Yanks wanted the Arrow trashed is that it was just TOO far ahead. The RAF pleaded to buy the half-dozen completed birds, as well as the design and tooling, but the Americans could NOT allow that.It would have put half of the US military aircraft industry out of work. So the Arrows were torched, the US aircraft industry was saved, the Canadians went South and West and put a man on the Moon and bits and pieces of the Arrow continue to fly, but with Stars and Stripes stickers on them.
And a whole generation of Canadians STILL feel as if they were robbed at gunpoint....... "but who gives a crap about Canadians, anyway?"
"Just Canadians."
"Oh well, they're not important."
"We import 40 percent of our crude oil from them."
"Oh. Let's hope they forget real easy."
@NorthernMopar: I'm really sorry, friend, but I think you're right.
But, when you think of it, ONE PERCENT of the contract for the F-35 would build us a pretty darned good ground-attack force if you based it on the Mosquito.
When talking about gasoline-powered combat aircraft, one point that everybody misses is fuel quality. We have FAR better A/C fuels these days than they had in War 2. A monster engine such as the Merlin could run far higher compression..... and put out far more horsepower..... with modern fuels than it could with the fuels of 70 years ago....... when the Mossie was the hottest thing in the low-level attack business. And it's stealthy as hell, too, even without modern coatings.
Possibly something to think about.
And THEN start design work on Arrow II..... first flight 2020...... I might even live to see it.
It would be worth seeing, too.
.
And a whole generation of Canadians STILL feel as if they were robbed at gunpoint....... "but who gives a crap about Canadians, anyway?"
"Just Canadians."
"Oh well, they're not important."
"We import 40 percent of our crude oil from them."
"Oh. Let's hope they forget real easy."
@NorthernMopar: I'm really sorry, friend, but I think you're right.
But, when you think of it, ONE PERCENT of the contract for the F-35 would build us a pretty darned good ground-attack force if you based it on the Mosquito.
When talking about gasoline-powered combat aircraft, one point that everybody misses is fuel quality. We have FAR better A/C fuels these days than they had in War 2. A monster engine such as the Merlin could run far higher compression..... and put out far more horsepower..... with modern fuels than it could with the fuels of 70 years ago....... when the Mossie was the hottest thing in the low-level attack business. And it's stealthy as hell, too, even without modern coatings.
Possibly something to think about.
And THEN start design work on Arrow II..... first flight 2020...... I might even live to see it.
It would be worth seeing, too.
.
By "we" I kinda meant the company I work for- Viking Air. Right now Twin Otters are the focus. I dont see new Beaver production happening any time soon.
SMELLIE, speaking of the Mosquito, there is one being restored to flying condition nextdoor to my workplace.
http://vicair.net/projects/mosquito
http://vicair.net/projects/mosquito
RedRabbits
Regular
- Location
- Holberg/Nanaimo BC
My god man what a welcome sight that is! Is the aircraft local or will it be gone forever one completed?
RedRabbits
Regular
- Location
- Holberg/Nanaimo BC
No kidding, I bookmarked that page maybe i will make the trip down to see her once shea all done
The Arrow was an advanced design and all but it wouldn't have been ahead of the interceptor designs U.S. had on the drawing boards, like the F-12 and F-108, which were also cancelled.
In that time period aircraft designs were improving at a rate similar to personal electronic devices today, with the latest and greatest quickly becoming old news.
With the advent of ICBMs and SLBMs, and to a lesser extent the possibility of fielding Mach 3 stategic bombers, the idea of the dedicated continental interceptor just wasn't seen to make sense anymore.
The real tragedy of the Arrow saga is that Canada never benefitted from the technology, and that its cancellation was one of the things that helped put the Liberals into power at a critical time.
ghostntheshell
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- GTA ONTARIO
To put it bluntly: no.
