Will legendary Avro Arrow make Lazarus-like return?

[JRW (QOR)]

This might be a good place for this news story, kinda fitting dont you think? 1000 comments so far.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/will-legendary-avro-arrow-make-lazarus-like-return/article4530724/

The federal government is being urged to reach back in history for a made-in-Canada solution to its fighter jet woes by resurrecting the legendary but aborted Avro Arrow interceptor to serve as this country’s next war plane.

It may seem a far-fetched idea but backers – including retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie – insist that a revised version of the 1950s jet, with an upgraded engine, would outperform Ottawa’s preferred choice on several important counts.

The revive-the-Avro campaign is the latest bizarre twist in a military purchase that’s gone awry on the Harper government’s watch.

The Conservatives, embarrassed by the rising costs of the U.S.-designed F-35 Lightning jets that the Royal Canadian Air Force sorely wants to purchase, are currently rethinking options for a next generation fighter.

Mr. MacKenzie and a group of design, engineering and logistics experts are pressing Ottawa to consider the long-discarded CF-105 plane.

The Diefenbaker government famously cancelled the Avro Arrow project in 1959, ending work on a Canadian aerospace marvel that supporters called the most advanced aircraft of its time.

Many in the Canadian aviation community never forgave Ottawa for scrapping the sleek, white plane, particularly after the government went on to buy U.S.-made Voodoo jets instead.

Proponents of reviving the Arrow are shopping a proposal around Ottawa that promises 120 planes for $9-billion, a number that just happens to be the government’s original cost estimate for the increasingly expensive F-35 jets.

Each new CF-105, they say, would cost $73-million to produce – a homegrown solution that would also create a domestic supersonic jet manufacturing capacity.

It’s hard to imagine a 53-year-old plane could outperform Lockheed Martin’s costly new F-35 fighter-bomber, but those behind a new CF-105 say their jet would pack a 21st-century punch.

Mr. MacKenzie said the proposal he’s put before the Harper government is for a made-in-Canada plane that could fly twice as fast as the F-35 and up to 20,000 feet higher. It would feature an updated Mark III engine and its range would be two to three times that of the F-35.

The former soldier, an unpaid supporter of the project, has run the pitch by Defence Minister Peter MacKay, senior defence officials as well as the Prime Minister’s Office and Julian Fantino when he was associate defence minister in charge of procurement.

Mr. MacKenzie said he’s met resistance in Ottawa, where officials insist they want the stealth capabilities that the F-35 can provide. Supporters of bringing back the CF-105, however, say the updated Arrow’s capabilities would make up for this because it could fly so much higher and faster.

One senior government source who’s reviewed the Avro backers’ pitch expressed deep skepticism about their business plan.

“[It] didn’t make a lot of sense to me,” said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Marc Bourdeau, a former Canadian public servant spearheading the CF-105 proposal, rejects the notion this is a pipe dream.

“This is not an exercise in nostalgia. This is an exercise in defence and industrial policy for Canada.”

Mr. MacKenzie said the new CF-105 would look like its predecessor but comparisons would end there.

“We are talking about a basic design that was tested and proven .… It will be recognizable in shape but it won’t be recognizable beyond that, given new technology and materials.”

Mr. MacKenzie, who is disappointed by the F-35, and in particular its capacity to intercept threats, said backers are taking their proposal to Canadians to see if there’s public pressure that can be brought to bear on the Harper government.

 

[kirkf]

Umm. That would be ridiculous.
We can't ressurect and update 1950s technology and put it in the modern combat arena.

We are 60 years out of date on this issue. It would take a monumental effort (read as $$$), and massive R&D program to produce a new fighter jet in Canada. Countries with far greater resources than ours have stumbled trying to do this, even when they stayed in the game for the last half century.

The only thing the Avro Arrow has in common with modern fighters, is that they both fly.

Kirk

 

[luke s]

it would be pretty awesome, but I dont see it happening

 

[Lee Enfield]

The reason the nuclear armed Arrow was cancelled had more to do with the fact that the nuclear armed bombers were not coming anymore with the advent of the Soviet's ICBMs.

Great idea, revive an obsolete aircraft for the skies of 50 years from now.

Does anyone (sane) actually think that a 1950's aircraft wouldn't be flying meat today, let alone in 2030??

Yes I know the B52 and Bear are still flying, but they are fulfilling different roles today, and demonstrated as far back as the 1960's how vulnerable they were without total air superiority.

 

[desporterizer]

Insanity.

 

[MauserMike]

This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while.

Turn the Arrow into a multi-role ground attack, recon and fighter in both day and night. WITH STEALTH?

Pigs might fly too. The only thing the Arrow has in straight line speed. After all it was designed as an interceptor.

 

[svt1940]

Interesting, at the time, what a shame that the government scrapped the Arrow before seeing really the performances, the Iroquois engine were ready to put in the Arrow when the project was aborded. The Canada was a leader in aerospatial but scrapping the Arrow changed things after, The wound possibly never healed completely. But times have changed alot, do Canada have what it take to design a new jet?
Joce

 

[Dyspnea]

As much as I love the arrow, this idea is ludacris! The amont of money just to make jiggs, tool, cad drawing, etc would consume 35billion in short order. If the arrow was made into production in the 60's, it might be a different story, considering the advances in metal alloy and computer tech, it would be an excellent aircraft.

 

[Baal]

I've never understood the Avro Arrow worship so many have. Do we really have such an inferiority complex about what we can do as a nation that we have to put a 50 year old untried aircraft on a pedestal and call the greatest aircraft since sliced bread? For all we know it was as fatally flawed a design as the Hawker Defiant or Fairey Battle in actual operational use. Leave it buried.

 

[ilikeoldguns]

depends what game you want to play. The arrow is the same sort of aircraft as the Mig-31 series. The F-35 is more akin to an F-100 Super Sabre to use an era-appropriate analogy.

Arrow vs F-35 is like apples and pine cones

I would argue that the KIND of aircraft the arrow was would serve our needs much better than a carrier-optimized multirole aircraft. Speed and ceiling put aircraft in whole other leagues, never mind what range does.

We'd do better developing weapons which can detect and destroy stealth aircraft and selling them to everyone.

But to be realistic; we need to lok at Russian birds, since only Russia has similar REAL defense needs as Canada does

 

[JasonJ]

But to be realistic; we need to lok at Russian birds, since only Russia has similar REAL defense needs as Canada does

I also agree that resurrecting the Arrow is silly. Here's what the Russians are currently working on:

Beauty is subjective, of course, but IMHO this is the nicest looking fighter since the YF-23.

Jason

 

[Calum]

Won't happen, Ottawa is in bed with the US military industry... Our days of building our own stuff is long gone.

 

[1bighead]

A project like this would involve hundreds of studies, hundreds of billions of dollars, thousands of hours of tesimony, and presented before endless parlimentary sub-commitees. No less than two dozen scientists, and aero engineers, would be dug up - or unfrozen from cryogenic sleep - in order to give "expert" testimony.

The proposal would be contensted, scoffed at, and fought over during the next election. It would take years to agree on a design, sent out to tender, before its eventually recalled over a change in the governments priorities, or a court injunction.

After numerous delays, lawsuits, and bank-breaking cost over-runs, the aircraft - now thirty or forty years out of date - would be assembled in Quebec, before starting its 100 year career with the Canadian Forces.

Cant wait to see it !

 

[diopter]

Probably get a better deal on the Euro Fighter from Germany in exchange for training airspace and Leopards happy hunting training grounds.

Stealth UAV air superiority and strike fighters with an Awacs wing might get better returns for the money.

Liked to see some Antonov 225 Spooky fire support versions for our ground troops.

Maybe develop a really long range air to air/air to ground missile(over 300km) guided in by Stealth UAVs prowling enemy airspace.

 

[stencollector]

I think General McKenzie is heading toward some kind of PTSD medical pension claim. To try and reopen the design and manufacture of a modern fighter aircraft in Canada by referring to a 50 year old project that was shelved before it was ever proven in incredulous. Don't get me worng, I will always wave the Canadian flag as much or more than the next guy, but the rhetoric that the unproven (and HUGE) Avro Arrow would still be a modern plane dates back to the 70s. There is more advanced technology in the last cellphone you threw out than in the Avro Arrow.

Maybe we could re-design the Wright Brother's Kittyhawk over to Solar power for a stealth yet green initiative. We could then reopen up production of the Mills Grenade for the pilot to toss over the side at any groundbased enemy. And with the low cost per aircraft, we could make hundreds of thousands of them to clog up the skies so that no enemy could possibly fly over our airspace.

**General McKenzie, if you are a gunnut and reading this, the last paragraph is meant to be sarcasm and in no way should it be taken seriously.**

 

[luke s]

I think General McKenzie is heading toward some kind of PTSD medical pension claim. To try and reopen the design and manufacture of a modern fighter aircraft in Canada by referring to a 50 year old project that was shelved before it was ever proven in incredulous. Don't get me worng, I will always wave the Canadian flag as much or more than the next guy, but the rhetoric that the unproven (and HUGE) Avro Arrow would still be a modern plane dates back to the 70s. There is more advanced technology in the last cellphone you threw out technology than in the Avro Arrow.

maybe I misread but no one said bring it back like it was 50 years ago..... just the shape, then modern everything else......

 

[Red_Liner740]

Meh, while we're at it, might as well resurrect the Sopwith Camel and the P-51...

 

[stencollector]

maybe I misread but no one said bring it back like it was 50 years ago..... just the shape, then modern everything else......

Oh, you mean like have a cockpit, some wings, some rudders, some landing gear and maybe an engine or two? Some form of tail assembly and some blinking lights to complete it? Sounds like almost any fighter craft out there.

You are likely right in that what the whole article is about is trying to build a Canadian made fighter and is referring to the Avro Arrow as an example of a Cdn designed and built plane. But the F-35 is also Canadian co-designed and will also be co-built by Canada. No one country will build the whole thing, but rather various components will be built by the participating countries. Why would anyone think that we could possibly go it alone and build something cheaper and better than a multi-national effort?

The consortium that is trying to pitch this Canadian solution now wants to tug at the Canadian sentiment to help persuade the government to take their pitch. Unless they are going to somehow assemble a fighter from off the shelf components, then by the time these were under production, the current CF18s would be pushing 50 years of age.

My own personal opinion of fighter jets? In Afghanistan the airforce was important in two main roles: They flew cargo and personal in and out of theater, and they (eventually) had helicopters to transport personal and equipment between KAF and FOBS. We did not make use of Canadian fighters there and if you look back to the last 20 years or so of CF18 operations, they have really only provided token service in joint operations. Don't waste the funds on any jets, but rather stick to what we need to support the army. That's cargo and helicopters.

My opinion of money spent on submarines is even less.

 

[Claven2]

Umm. That would ridiculous.
We can't ressurect and update 1950s technology and put it in the modern combat arena.

We are 60 years out of date on this issue. It would take a monumental effort (read as $$$), and massive R&D program to produce a new fighter jet in Canada. Countries with far greater resources than ours have stumbled trying to do this, even when they stayed in the game for the last half century.

The only thing the Avro Arrow has in common with modern fighters, is that they both fly.

Kirk

I tend to agree, though the Arrow's titanium airframe, with minor updates, might be able to compete in an arctic sovereignty role, it's the avionics and weapons systems that add all the cost - and those would need to be bought from someone like Lockheed Martin Canada at huge expense, then integrated. Also, the Arrow was an interceptor, not a mixed-role aircraft. We need something versatile enough to be also used for ground attack.

Finally, the arrow's designs were destroyed on purpose. There really is not enough left to reconstruct an airframe even if we wanted to.

Must be a slow news day.

 

[Claven2]

My opinion of money spent on submarines is even less.

Then you would be wrong. There is no more misunderstood program in Canada than the submarine program.

The "wasted millions" on the Victorias is actually less cost per sea day than any of our allies spend on submarines BY FAR. To include Australia, the US, and all NATO players. Reporters have sensationalized the boats to DEATH but today they represent the ONLY stealth capability the CF has and the only REAL force projection this country has to protect Canadian shipping lanes and littoral waters.

Not all CF priorities center around overseas deployments in despotic third world countries - the NDHQ brass have to have a much broader definition when it comes to the CF CONOPS than boots on the ground and endless upgrades to the LAVs.